I received a copy of a promotional piece from the Dror Center. It’s one of the few successful “independent” scientology groups.
Let me say at the outset that Dani and Tami Lemberger are wonderful people and personal friends and I thoroughly enjoy their company when they come to visit with us. They founded and still run the Dror Center.
I do not subscribe to their views concerning scientology, but they try to help people and do no harm. No disconnection. No Fair Game. No hard sell regging.
What this promo piece does is give insight into the way scientologists view COVID-19 without the filter imposed by the organization that lives in fear of its beliefs being known to the world (just watch them do the Texas Two Step on disconnection, whether they believe in aliens or Xenu and the truth about homosexuality). Independent scientologists are unafraid of expressing their beliefs, and for that they should be admired. Scientology is not in fact more inherently crazy than other religions — it is the deception that is most reprehensible, including the assertion that they don’t “believe” because scientology “works.”
I have said on a few occasions that scientologists believe disease is only caused by PTSness. They are pretending to the world that they believe otherwise and that disease is a medical matter rather than spiritual. The C/S at Dror has no problem coming right out and saying it, along with a few other tried and true Hubbard “stable data.”
“The spirit alone may heal the body.”
The news of the pandemic is simply the Merchants of Chaos running wild. He uses comparative numbers to “prove” that this is just “bad news” like I have seen a number of other “pandemic deniers” cite. The comparisons are illogical, but I won’t even go into this.
Finally, he mocks the “church” for putting out publications about washing your hands or staying a safe distance apart — they are “limited to the body. Oh My God!” and then directs people to the Scientology Handbook chapter Solutions For Dangerous Environment section on Ways to Lessen the Threat.
Aviv Bershadsky is a good scientologist. He espouses what L. Ron Hubbard teaches. NOT social distancing (unless you are a declared SP) or washing hands or disinfecting spaces. As I have said, these publications and videos are merely attempts to gain brownie points with the public at large.
Not bound by the “code” of a corporate scientologist to never utter words in conflict with those of Dear Leader or the institution, Aviv says what EVERY good scientologist is thinking and fervently believes. This IS what scientologists believe.
Happy Easter to all of you!
(to those still a bit in the cult ‘happy resurection of an R6 implant’!)
Lol love the secondary greeting LMR! Happy Easter to you and yours and I do hope (& even pray) that you and your loved ones are staying safe and healthy!
Italy is coming through a very serious and tough time, but the sense of community is what will help this turn around quickly and offer support to so many.
Just so very sad to see how many beautiful lives were lost. Of course because of meeting you via here, it keeps Italy in the thoughts, prayers and hearts of so many of us here, but also worldwide, so I do hope you feel a sense of that!
Jenyfurrr. Thank you. The second greetings is a Mike’s quote from the Thursday funnies that made me laugh for a couple of days.
Yes we are doing fine. My family wife daughters and granddaughters all doing well and all “safe” in the same location. Thanks for you prayers. I pray for all of you too.
Here in Italy is a little better but it is as well the key moment to keep the restrictions on. Nothing is said until the virologist would says we left it behind.
In chin I just read yesterday the have hundred new cases in one day.
We must stay awake.
I meant China (not chin)
Holy fucking fucksocks.
It reads like a parody.
To the typical scientologist, affirming a virus or an illness is to affirm fear, granting it power over the individual.
A thetan is a perfect being. Imperfection is a false belief – assumed in error, misownership, etc.
Hub claimed a PTS must have agreed to be suppressed.
To conquer MEST one must “disagree with it”.
This is a basic principle of scientology: that which you agree to be real is real.
They can’t discuss specifics with the general public as every scientologist’s reality depends on their altitude on the bridge.
illness is a biological reaction to either:
1. A post hypnotic trigger (via an engram/implant)
2. A connection to an SP
3. A BT’s connection to an SP
4. A BT who doesn’t know he’s a BT
These are the four primary scientology answers as to why people get ill.
But a dangerous environment means a restimulative environment. That’s when the real shit goes down. Scientologists may become disaffected, distracted or sick. The org’s job suddenly gets a lot harder.
So the message is: “disagree!”
Or, in its basic form: “please remain a scientologist!”
That’s the problem with a bait-and-switch religion where the secrets of the universe depend on how much money you’ve spent. It’s pretty pathetic. And yet perfectly appropriate.
“[W]ithout auditing, a person living in a dangerous environment and under constant stress is only likely to get worse. If the person is sick as well as being subjected to a dangerous environment, there would be no hope of recovery without auditing.” — HCOB 20 December 1979, NED for OTs Series 48, AUDITING SOMEBODY UNDER CONSTANT AND CONTINUOUS PT STRESS.
Theta is a brainwave of the mind. There are many more. The Theta(n) brainwave locks the mind into years 1 thru 7 years old. I wonder if Ron knew this, and took advantage of it. Matters of the spirit should not be interfered with by spiritual blind humans trying to make a buck…
What a crock!
Might I ask what kind of crock? Because…there’s a lot of crock out there!
Dear Mike,
First of all, I would like to thank you for publishing my e-mail to your audience.
Considering your attitude toward the Church of Scientology, Scientology and Ron Hubbard, I see your post more in the light of a compliment than a critique.
Nevertheless, there are few points of what you wrote, that I would like to respond to, if you don’t mind.
Just as a matter of clarification, I didn’t write that “disease is only caused by PTSness.” My statement was that diseases are not solely caused by microbes and viruses. I don’t negate the virus. I don’t live in the 16th century.
You write: “Aviv Bershadsky is a good scientologist. He espouses what L. Ron Hubbard teaches.” Thanks for the compliment. However, it seems to me that you imply that I read Ron Hubbard’s teachings, took them for granted and now I am preaching them to the rest of the world.
Not quite…
I never met Ron Hubbard. I don’t know him personally. I owe him nothing. He didn’t pay me anything to promote him. I first read his teachings 20 years ago. I was 20. Now I am 40. Yes, I know Ron Hubbard’s teachings half of my life. In these years I audited and case supervised hundreds of preclears in Dror Center. In my biased opinion, the majority of the people experienced great personality changes as the result of auditing and now lead a better life. Well, they also are telling me this, so I guess I am not that biased…
I perceive you, Mike, as a person inclining to the US mainstream frame of mind, as far as Scientology is concerned – “one of the crazy religions”. It’s very popular these days to criticize Ron Hubbard and his technology. You also, probably, believe that we only live once, and you stick to conventional medicine. Fine with me, really.
However, if a scientist would come over to Dror and using scientific method would study all the written evidence accumulated for the last 28 years of Dror Center’s existence, interview all the people on our lines and even follow up on their progress for a year or two, he would most likely conclude that auditing techniques developed by Ron Hubbard are as scientific as it can get as far as human mind is concerned. And that would put auditing into science academies and into the mainstream. Scientology is in Israel from 1952. Lots of people did it in the 80’. Everybody heard about it. So how come there was not even one scientist, psychologist or psychiatrist that studied this “weird social phenomenon” called Scientology. You don’t need to be a genius to answer that question. They do what they paid for. And they paid by pharmaceutical companies. That’s also not a secret.
You are attacking the Church of Scientology, Mike? Small fish, really. No doubt they are on the list of “evildoers”, but far from the first place. Have a look in the Wikipedia the revenues of the pharmaceutical corporations. They are number one legal industry on the planet. Following is the military industry, falling way behind… Now, before you write: “Oh! Here is another Scientology fanatic, negating medicine”, let me say that I am not against medicine and medical drugs. I think emergency medicine is vital. The preventive medicine is the most important, yet almost not existent. Most of the pills do not cure human diseases but relieve its symptoms, doctors themselves say so. If medical drugs were efficient, the revenue of the pharmaceutical companies would decline year after year. This is not the case. This industry negates the spirit. They want total materialism. They want people to take more pills. Period. They even attack vitamins! Best minds of the planet are trying to develop a cure for cancer for about 70 years now, they haven’t found it yet. In my humble and uneducated opinion ¬– it is because they negate the existence of spirit.
For your information, Mike, human spirit was not only discussed by the “crazy religions”. It was studied and described by such scientists as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Giordano Bruno, Voltaire, Allan Kardec, to name a few. Somehow, we all studied “Pythagorean theorem”, but not “The Pythagorean Soul”. And why is that?
And last but not the least, you write: “Let me say at the outset that Dani and Tami Lemberger are wonderful people and personal friends and I thoroughly enjoy their company when they come to visit with us.” Mike, do you think they were born that way and their personality hasn’t changed even slightly with the auditing they got? Ask them, they will tell you. They are the nicest people I know for a reason, not by chance.
Best Regards,
Aviv
Very happy to finally hear from some “Indie’s”. I have been following Scientology since 1972 and achieved OT VIII in 1988. Hubbard was alive during most of my Scientology career so I remember him well. I think you are totally missing the point about people who criticize Scientology from the outside. Marty Rathbun’s old Blog as well as this blog and all others seem to agree that the early teachings of Hubbard about the mind and the spirit have some value. Some say no value and damage while the vast majority say they did get some help. As an independent, you can bring people into session and in a gentle way get some results. This is nothing more than the psychological term “Abreaction” which is well known in the medical community. You get minor relief from review of the past. But the serious point that your missing is that the upper bridge of Scientology especially OT 5-OT8 are dangerous. Miscavige certainly deteriorated the levels but Hubbard was dead wrong in his interpretation of higher OT powers. His death was proof of that. In the end he failed. However, you can use a few of his drills to create a nice session and get someone to say nice things. When I did touch assists in Miami in the 1980’s, I was in constant demand and people loved Hubbard. But the simple only goes so far. It is actually very dangerous to run people on “Body Thetans” and Hubbard’s OT levels. I witnessed much insanity and death. Hubbard was way overpriced, overvalued, and dead wrong on the spirit. You can have your own belief. I made a fortune in 1989 doing what you are doing. I had blown out people. I was a great auditor. But in the end, they go nowhere but bankrupt.
George. I didn’t do the OT levels so to talk about it I have to look at it from another angle.
The thetan is defined as life. Now Life has no opposites (the opposite of death would be birth) therefore a thetan is a reflection of Life which however has forgotten to be and tries to “be” only itself (ego).
It seems to me that on the OT levels everything sees more in the direction of strengthening an individualization from Life than re-immersing oneself in it.
In addition to this and based on the above: it is not that one is actually auditing Life “identities” instead of auditing BTs and is therefore making a mess?
The existence of the thetan has never been proven.
You can find out about OT8 from my 3 videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQKCwz-RMA&t=38s
George thank you. I just watch it. Interesting indeed.
Dear George,
Thank you for your reply.
You write: “I think you are totally missing the point about people who criticize Scientology from the outside. Marty Rathbun’s old Blog as well as this blog and all others seem to agree that the early teachings of Hubbard about the mind and the spirit have some value.”
Sorry, I haven’t followed this blog for a while. Could you please refer me when this statement “the early teachings of Hubbard about the mind and the spirit have some value” was the last time illustrated on this blog? When was the last time any good news published about auditing results? When was the last time that any indie activity featured here?
Dean Graziosi, US mainstream author, multiple New York Times Best Selling Author, not Ron Hubbard, god forbid, writes:
“Did you know that in the 1950’s Time Magazine covers were about 90% positive in tone and content? Then, through the years, Time Magazine realized that the more negative their stories, the more copies they would sell. In fact, they realized that negative superlatives work 30% better at snaring readers’ attention than positive ones. And not just that, but the average click-through rates on headlines with negative superlatives are a staggering 63% higher than that of their positive counterparts. This emphasis on the negative isn’t just an editorial decision. The negative content reflects the increasing number of anxiety-producing global events such as the rise of terrorism, ecological disasters, and many other crises and calamities. All this contributes to our perception that things are getting worse.
Now is Time Magazine the only one who has gone through this transformation and is delivering negative news? Of course not. Time Magazine has to make a profit, as does every other news outlet in the world. If they decide to focus only on the positive, they won’t generate the readership and revenue they require. And the media has developed a disaster reflex—whether it’s a devastating hurricane or an urban riot, they provide saturation coverage, creating the impression that the end of the world is near. As a cynical television news producer once said, “If it bleeds, it leads.”
So, by only criticizing auditing and Ron Hubbard, this blog(=Mike) is another example of media bias. Of course, it is Mike’s opinion and all that stuff. However, if Mike considers himself to be kind of a journalist, a blogger, whatever he considers himself to be, he should present all the angles of the subject so that the reader will have a balanced opinion. Otherwise this blog does a disservice to the public.
Why not to publish here and there the results of auditing that independent auditors are having all over the world?
Here is, George, our site where you can find video success stories of people who got auditing at Dror now days, not 20 years ago: https://scnil.org/english/ They tell what they tell. You may think what you want and call it by any psychological term you wish. Good part of it – they are not broke. Quite the opposite. They are, in most, very successful people who enjoy life.
Thanks again for commenting.
Best Regards, Aviv
You are welcome and I respect your opinion. I have visited your site but find no real substance as it is based on Hubbard.
I agree with media bias but the concept does not apply to Scientology.
There are very few compliments about Scientology. From 2008 until about 2012, Rathbun had a lot of positives. Positives have died out due to Aftermath and Leah and Mike who really exposed Hubbard and Miscavige.
You might want to view my interviews with Ron Miscavige to really understand Scientology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQKCwz-RMA&t=38s
Dear George,
Leah and Mike really exposed Hubbard and Miscavige? Well done to them! The only thing they did not expose is how it is possible that concurrently with the harsh critique on Hubbard, there is an activity, based on his writings, that genuinely helps people. I don’t say that I have an answer. However, if they or you are investigating the phenomenon, why don’t you investigate it fully?
Mike had a good excuse as regards to the Church of Scientology that the Church is out of comm. Well, we in Dror Center are in comm, we are open and have nothing to hide. Eight years after we left the Church, we have people on our lines who has never been to the Church and who even didn’t hear about Hubbard previously. Why don’t you, Mike, Leah, Ron Miscavige and whoever else wants, come to Dror Center and investigate this? Maybe we are another Hubbard’s fraud or maybe there is something else going on here.
You can label our activity with psychological terms (although I think that guys on this blog don’t like Hubbard labeling people), say what’s dangerous and what’s not, indulge in memoirs of truly great Sea Org veterans or do other somewhat pleasant intellectual activity from the comfort of your chair, or you can go out to the real world and do a simple observation in present time, talking with people and perhaps even experiencing some of the auditing, ‘Dror style’.
If you, Mike, Leah are reporting only on one side of the coin, you are just creating another media scoop. If that is your intention – fine. But, please, don’t call yourself ‘truth-fighters’, because you are obviously not.
Best regards,
Aviv
You are assuming we are investigating to find the truth of something. That has never been the case.
We are exposing abuses we know are occurring so they can be ended. I don’t believe you are abusing people so you are of no real interest.
Aviv,
I would love to take trip to Israel. Always wanted to see it. However, I have restrictions from medical people which I am breaking now.
You need to re-read my response. I said in a nutshell that the lower elements of Hubbard’s practice – which falls under gentle “abreaction” – does provide benefit to people. I was on your platform in Miami in 1989 doing auditing like you. OT levels especially OT 8 reveal how stupid Hubbard really was. You cannot deny that. Please read my book “Lucifer’s Bridge”.
Dear Aviv: Can you tell me one person today that is Clear and what qualitities do they have besides they have attested to stating they are mocking up their reactive minds but can stop it and control it? L Ron Hubbard stated in his book Dianetics that you can GET RID of your reactive mind. THAT is what I thought I was doing. I tried to get rid if it in Scientology and went all the way up the Bridge but because they did not hear me say, I am mocking up my reactive mind but can stop it and control it, they would not allow me to attest. I had a lot of BPC and BI’s because I was punished for complaininmg and then received sec checks and ethics handlings. THAT was gas lighting and mind fuckery. It fucked me up.
Can I meet 1…just 1 Clear today that has the qualities L Ron Hubbard promised and what qualities would we see?
I am very sincere. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Dear Barely…
I helped many preclears whose Clear originations were mishandled for years in the Church. Please contact me at friendsofdrorcenter@gmail.com and I will take up this subject with you.
Thank you in advance,
Aviv
Barely Clear, no he cannot show you even ONE person who after “going clear” obtained the abilities that Hubtard said ALL clears get and he had verified this through years of research and subjects audited. Aviv will just prevaricate and deflect while not showing you anyone who obtained the abilities Hubtard said would happen.
If a scamologists is “splaining” they are lying.
Aviv I appreciated your comment.
I speak only in my name. I can certainly agree that businesses such as pharmaceutical companies or the arms industry have very invasive interests and control in society.
However, this blog as described by Mike has its own mission, to report about CoS abuses and lies. And not indicate which is the group plus SP and talk about it.
The goal here is to grow general awareness of what is going on in there.
Forced disconnections pushed by the church as a result of doubtful PTS handlings or family separations for hundreds of free declare SPs is more than enough.
And not mentioning money debts and bankruptcy that involves many of the members, generating many times real “ptsness” to them.
Dear Loosing…
Understood! The only point I am making is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Best Regards,
Aviv
Aviv. Thank you. Laughing. In Italy we have a similar saying.
I don’t make a=a=a, I look and accept what I seeand don’t get stuck on fixed ideas.
I was in the SO for 15 years and I just personally think that miscavige has made a mess that now affects everybody. You included. And my target is to get people thinking fo themselves. Not puppets of DM. Life from my view is one and not individual sparkles but current official Scn has pervert it. Just that. Thank you.
Ex-Sea Org now Medical Anthropologist + Technologist here, actually only when it comes to medical trials (mostly drugs) are the majority of scientific studies sponsored in full or part by pharmaceutical companies. Even in that small subset of medical science it’s still just 75%, which is again not all of medical science either.
Personally, not a single study I’ve worked on has ever received pharmaceutical monies, mainly because they don’t involve drugs (mainly in art/music-based therapy for traumatized & chronically ill children). Most scientific research is funded by government or non-profit organizational grants. Other industries as well contribute money into scientific research, tech companies in particular as computer science is also a part of science pour about even with pharmaceuticals. Many also take loans from banks, paying it back piece by piece just like many of us do with the mortgage on our house. Some others “bootstrap” their research through their day jobs, usually academic but often tech or government. Crowdfunding & Patronages is also quite popular and there are websites dedicated to this. These processes aren’t dissimilar to how A.B.L.E. gains money via either lots of small donations -or- larger ones from wealthy donors. With any research (scientific or otherwise) there are also venture capitalists, and angel investors in the mix; these people can come from any industry and quite frankly though there are a small amount of pharmaceutical types, there are far more bankers & techies in that group as well.
Pharmaceutical people do have it cushy, but they’re the minority of the scientific community.
See:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/who_pays
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/06/real-cost-research-and-who-pays
So though I’m not a strict materialist, (I’m Taoist) so therefore do *believe* that looking at underlying spiritual aspects can help a person get better (depending on illness source), that doesn’t disprove the repeatedly proven science *facts* that show a person can get sick from just germs + accidents alone. To use a belief in one as “proof” that another construct is “false” or “partially incorrect” that’s a logical fallacy of the Texas Shooter + Anecdotal + Tu Quoque + False Cause varieties (please look these terms up.)
As for the difference procedural differences in neuroscience talk based therapies & scientology auditing, my thoughts mirror much of what George White stated in terms of the harms that can occur. However it would literally take you multiple courses of college level bio/neuro/health & maybe even anthro or socio or {*gasp*} psych coursework for us to properly discuss comparing them in detail, or at least reading/watching the materials covered in such courses.
However, this blog is not a proper Forum site and therefore isn’t suited for long detailed, term heavy back & forth discussions.
In scientology terms, you’ll get a LOT of MUs if I do it, and to be 100% honest I don’t have the time to either.
Suffice it to say be it nurses; social scientists (anthro, socio, psych); medical doctors; other therapists; or biologists, etc. we actually do read/analyze both proto/past scientists + philosophers including Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, and many more in science history+philosophy+ethics courses, particularly at the collegiate level. In better high schools some are lucky enough to have easier versions of those courses. We also study the works of current scientists of all spiritual and non-spiritual stripes and discuss these things at conferences. Just because you aren’t privy to these discussions doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Check out some TED talks by scientists of various faiths if you are actually curious about these, as it’s actually one of the few places that these discussions take place in a general public, not jargon heavy format. You could also check out the works of Francis Collins a molecular geneticist, Head of the National Institutes of Health, and Christian minister.
Additionally, there are scientists who’ve studies scientology from a scientific lens – ironically many in my set (anthropology). Some point out pros in comparison to other religions, more point out cons, most show where/when/why certain processes can be harmful in relationship to current models of how the brain works. You can look these up on JSToR, PLOS, the American Anthropological Associations site, Academia.edu, Wiley, etc. some are behind paywalls, but many are free and even the ones that aren’t you can at least read the abstract.
Hopefully this gives you some “stable data” in terms of how science operates today. Hubbard & via him Scientology as well contain a LOT of ideas about science, particularly social science, that were either true way back when he learned it (but not true now) or were thought to be true then but have since been found either incomplete or wrong. Science, though not perfect, is a constantly self & other correcting system; scientology is not, that’s the beauty of the former.
Dear Valerie,
Thank you very much for your detailed comment. It was truly enlightening. I have a question. Except of studying the spirit in the ways you mentioned, what do scientists do currently to help a spirit?
Best Regards,
Aviv
Aviv: “Thank you very much for your detailed comment. It was truly enlightening.”
You’re welcome Aviv. Odd aside my neighbor is also named Aviv, he’s from Canada but his mom is originally Israeli.
Sorry for the delay, this is my third pandemic and there’s a lot on my plate. Hours for the first few weeks not dissimilar to when in the Sea Org, I digress.
Aviv: “I have a question. Except of studying the spirit in the ways you mentioned, what do scientists do currently to help a spirit?”
For this there’s a bit of some “step 0’s” as it were:
The first would be how Non-scientologists, especially scientists define belief vs. fact; and how it differs from Scientology/ist use of those terms.
I’m also using the term “Scientologists” here to include independents, other “squirrel”-types, and those in “corporate scientology.” With the caveat that like Mike Rinder I think that “Squirrels” and/or “Indies” for lack of a better term aren’t any more variant/odd philosophically to mainstream society than say anyone practicing a rarer spirituality, ex. Odinism.
Please don’t take this as an insult, it’s not intended as such and unfortunately until there’s a term for both people who Miscavige would call “squirrels” but follow Hubbard’s teachings + those in his “corporate scientology” group as a bigger group (sort of like Catholics +Protestants+Orthodox are all together called Christians) then we kind of have no choice but to use the term “Scientologists” for all of you. Even if we really only take major issue with Miscavige’s people and the related abuses.
The thing with “religious schisms” (the term which Historians call what you’re going through) are tough and a lot of things have no names until later as people create them. I might suggest “Hubbardist’s” since you all follow his teachings in your own ways, but it’s also not my place as someone who no longer follows them in any way shape or form to decide the term. Good luck with that …
Back to the OG topic’s step O’s.
So from a scientific point of view, though again most non-scientologist’s agree:
A “Belief” is something that is true for an individual or group, but either cannot be proved historically/scientifically or through similar academic means; and is often derived from a spiritual construct and/or non-independently verified anecdotal experiences.
To paraphrase a Hubbard quote “if it’s true for you it’s true” and to science and in general that type of truth is a considered a “belief.”
For example, with auditing we cannot also say strap a person experiencing it to an EEG/MRI/etc. to see what’s going on with their brainwaves. I mean we could do some of this technologically, but doubt a single auditor would allow what say Buddhist monks/advanced practitioners allowed here https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12661646. Though someone could do before/after/baseline. There have been a few studies on auditing as a practice and there’s no conclusive evidence of engrams as Hubbard defines them. This is not the same as conclusive evidence they don’t exist either.
Ergo = belief.
However it’s also interesting to note that Richard Semon’s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Semon) definition of the word and similar concept pre-dates Hubbard’s by many years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engram_%28neuropsychology%29) though at least it’s testable & potentially falsifiable. As an aside increasing evidence from genetic theory as well as advances in neuroimaging (various machines that can see brain activity + structure) make the theory less likely.
Which leads me to my next point, even if there is a “spirit” this is also considered a belief due to its non-Falsifiability/non-testability (cannot conclusively be proven true or false). Excerpt from https://think.taylorandfrancis.com/aa-ghosts-and-spirits/ a publication in my field.
“For anthropologists, the reality of ghosts and spirits is in the cultural realm; if people grow up hearing tales of malevolent ghosts, they are likely to “see” and feel the presence of ghosts around them. These spirits are real because they affect people’s thought and behavior. ”
The existence of being a spirit, having a spirit or their being spirits isn’t provable in the scientific sense and is thus a belief.
In contrast a “fact” is true regardless of if a person/group believes it or not. Like gravity or the salinity of certain oceans or the earth being round. Did you know there are still people who believe the earth’s flat? Their belief doesn’t make the world less round though.
The second step O is the concept here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-overlapping_magisteria
This means scientists ‘as scientists’ only really study what people believe, why they believe it, a belief’s or it’s related practices measurable effects, how that belief evolved, such like. Also, even social scientists who do engage in the practice of “participant observation” are engaging in those spiritual practices to understand the process of a particular ritual (ex. Confession) in order to feel the effects themselves vs. believing a belief themselves. They might or might not belief the belief(s) behind the process, it matters not.
Again as seen here https://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/ many scientists don’t have any religious/spiritual beliefs or practices themselves. Those who don’t have them fall into two groups “strict materialists”: those who “believe” everything has a material explanation) and “non-materialists”: those with who believe in some spiritual concepts but generally don’t believe in God(s/esses) or believe such beings and/or religion has very little effect or importance on overall quality of life.
In the end scientists, like indeed most people, engage in or with whatever spirit or spirits, as part of themselves or others might exist within the context of whatever faith they have. Scientist learn to bifurcate (split) what they belief as “faith X” from what they know as scientists.
Scientists ‘as scientists’ don’t engage thusly, they’re looking for the effects – positive, negative or placebo or nocebo (https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMra1907805) etc.
Other related references:
https://www.jospt.org/doi/full/10.2519/jospt.2013.0105
https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMra1907805
https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/mindfulness-can-improve-heart-health
As a Taoist I do *believe* many things (myself included) have a spiritual component.
However as a Scientist I *know* that this belief is not a testable hypothesis and therefore not “fact,” nor scientific.
Hopefully this clarifies things. Please feel free to dig into some basic science texts, or shows like @StarTalkRadio or those on @Discovery should be a good gradient.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wynski you’re right in that what Aviv is proposing isn’t science, but you’re dead wrong in your approach. My fellow social scientist’s term this “othering” and it does the exact opposite of the intention of science as a body as well the general tone of this site.
http://www.otheringandbelonging.org/the-problem-of-othering/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/darwins-subterranean-world/201904/the-psychology-othering
https://www.echotraining.org/survivorempowerment/
Science is a method of studying and engaging in the world; it’s primary uses are to increase understanding through discovery of how things work, create new things, enlighten and educate.
Trying to make people feel shitty because they don’t know/understand something is antithetical to that.
Thank you for taking the time to provide such a calm, thoughtful and detailed reply. I feel this is perhaps wasted as a comment on what is now a somewhat old post. Would you mind if I took this and published it as a post in my blog?
“However, if a scientist would come over to Dror and using scientific method would study all the written evidence accumulated for the last 28 years of Dror Center’s existence,interview all the people on our lines and even follow up on their progress for a year or two, he would most likely conclude that auditing techniques developed by Ron Hubbard are as scientific ”
Aviv, that is NOT how scientific research is done. What you are talking about is examining anecdotal evidence and confirmation biased non-controlled experiments. Any scientists would laugh at what you just proposed.
Your COMPLETE lack of science training is a shame. But you are exactly the dupe Hubbard recruited. Not educated enough to evaluate your dinner..
BTW a REAL scientific test was run on Diantetics auditing and the existence of engrams. Result? Both are false.
And your name, Professor?
And your level and field of science training?
Could you please provide me with the link to the scientific test you mentioned?
E.E USE GOOGLE. That’s how I found it. You will NOT be able to understand what I’m talking about UNTIL you ACTUALLY go study for YEARS at a college. Hubbard’s bullshit short cuts to education don’t work. Which is why you have such a poor understanding of the real world and are stuck in a loony tunes cult.
Hubtard wouldn’t have had to declared people criminal to keep his dupes from communicating with them for asking questions of his “tech” if it were true. If by using simple logic you cannot figure THAT out you are too stupid to converse wit.
Hahaha. You complain on Hubbard not answering technical questions, yet you couldn’t answer my three simple questions. The only thing I conclude from your answer is that your level of education is Google and that you are lacking manners. Have a good life.
I DID answer your first question but due to your lack of an education you didn’t recognize the answer. Also, my job isn’t to do YOUR internet searches. And I didn’t complain about Hubtard not answering questions but for declaring people who dared ask them. You illiterate moron.
Dear Aviv
I’ve spent 22 yrs inn the SO and I know a bit of the tech. You should definitely continue with your independent delivery of Hubbard procedures so long as they produce what they promise. One of the main fraud perpetrated by the official orgs, none excluded is the fact that they do not deliver what they promise. Some glaring examples are the Ls and OT8. On the Ls one is supposed to achieve the EP of Stably Exterior with full perception. I have never met anyone who did them and could do that, I’ve even run into some refund case who was an Ls completion and stated in session he had never gone ext. On OT8 one is supposed to handle amnesia on the Whole track and the result is the same, I’ve had many of them in session and nobody had that ability. I can confirm by personal experience that 98% of the persons I hhave audited felt better as result of the auditing, but it is different than stating thy all achieved the Whole lot of promised abilities stated on the bridge. Not to mention the atrocity of the Truth RD, I suppose you do not know about since it’s not available in the field (Heavens forbid) I can’t call that auditing but torture and it does not make anyone better because it’s designed to make you admit to be a criminal to make yourself wrong and Miscavige right. So to end my advice here. keep up the good work, but do not believe blindly that all that LRH wrote was true. I used to have that silly viewpoint while on staff, that’s not the case anymore. Do well and do not fall for all those who get sick are PTS, it is not the case.
Dear Sarduseu,
Thank you for your comment and advise. I appreciate your 22 years long contribution. As to self, I am striving not to take anything for granted in all spheres of my life.
Best regards,
Aviv
Aviv, you ask the right question regarding studies about Scientology – apparently you are unaware of the studies that have already been done.
Hubbard knew that real scientific validation would provide proof of his theories, and be the best marketing tool ever, so the Hubbard Dianetics Research Foundation was set up. Its efforts and some independent ones ended in failure, and were conveniently forgotten. See, for instance:
* L. B. Fisher, “Dianetic Theory: An Experimental Evaluation”, Dissertation abstracts, New York University, New York, 1954, p. 390.
*C. Fox, A. Davis, and A. Lebovits, “Experimental Investigation of Hubbard’s Engram Hypothesis”, Psychological Abstracts, No. 1475, 1960.
About 3 decades later, Scientology’s FASE project tried again – and once again it was a failure, and the results, showing that Dianetics and Scientology indeed operated at nothing more than the level of placebo effects, were swept under the rug again. One of the doctors involved in those failed trials commented here:
https://www.mikerindersblog.org/purification-rundown-debunked/#comment-261947
And there were actually psychologists and even psychiatrists not only studying Dianetics and Scientology, but involved in it. The the most famous of those was successful mission holder Dr. Frank “Sarge” Gerbode. He later went on to try to distill auditing into a form that could be scientifically studied and validated, Traumatic Incident Reduction or TIR – which turned out to be only about as effective as other talk therapies used in psychology, and thus nothing exceptional:
http://www.appliedmetapsychology.org/research-publications/case-studies/
That should pretty much settle it, that Dianetics and Scientology provide no more benefits than garden-variety counseling at best – and, of course, can do nothing at all for those most severely afflicted with mental and psychologial problems, and thus truly in need of help. And if you don’t like those results, why don’t you do another study there in Israel? All it really takes is a graduate student looking for a project.
The failure of independent Dianeticicsts and Scientologists to do any proper research in the last 70 years (other than Sarge Gerbode, above), by itself pretty much proves that they are not practicing, and incapable of doing, actual science.
Dear PeaceMaker,
Thank you for the tip about a graduate student. I might use it one day.
“* L. B. Fisher, “Dianetic Theory: An Experimental Evaluation”, Dissertation abstracts, New York University, New York, 1954, p. 390.
*C. Fox, A. Davis, and A. Lebovits, “Experimental Investigation of Hubbard’s Engram Hypothesis”, Psychological Abstracts, No. 1475, 1960.” – unfortunately couldn’t find them online. If you have them in a file, please send it to me to friendsofdrorcenter@gmail.com.
In this comment https://www.mikerindersblog.org/purification-rundown-debunked/#comment-261947 – David W. Schnare says that the research was incomplete due to lack of funding and gives somewhat positive feedback on the Purif: “In any case, the Purif can reduce body burdens of chemicals you really don’t want in the body.”
TIR is not scientology auditing. It has its own rules – irrelevant as far as I am concerned.
You write: “Dianetics and Scientology provide no more benefits than garden-variety counseling at best – and, of course, can do nothing at all for those most severely afflicted with mental and psychologial problems, and thus truly in need of help.”
Assuming the above is true, although it totally contradicts my daily observations, what is, in your opinion, the best practice/science/ counselling on Earth today to help a person with mental, emotional, spiritual problems and to help those most severely afflicted with mental and psychological problems?
Best Regards,
Aviv
Hi PeaceMaker, do you mind if I also take a stab at answering since this is kind of related to my research at the moment anyways?
So what type of therapy a person uses with a client depends on many things, first what type of mental illness or issue they have – for example something that works for a 12yr with bulimia isn’t the same as a 88 year old male with bipolar issues. Plus some are willing to take medications and others aren’t, but also CBT has been shown to be more effective than drugs AND their have been other breakthroughs of externally worn stimulation machines so as a field things are moving away from drugs and into things which create more neuroplasticity (please look up term, it’s key!).
Some non-drug therapies and their best uses are as follows (taken from a larger article at TalkSpace):
Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Therapy [AEDP]
AEDP explores difficult emotional and relational experiences to develop coping tools that allow better functioning.
Acceptance and Commitment Therapy [ACT]
ACT helps clients develop mindfulness skills with the goal of consistent values and psychological flexibility.
Adlerian Psychotherapy
This approach improves the ability to adapt to feelings of inadequacy and inferiority relative to others.
Anger Management
This approach teaches clients to identify stressors, remain calm and handle tense situations in a positive and constructive manner.
Bibliotherapy
This approach uses literature to improve mental health and explore psychological issues.
Coherence Therapy [Depth-Oriented Brief Therapy]
Coherence therapy helps clients empathetically and quickly delve into deeply held emotional beliefs.
Collaborative Therapy
In collaborative therapy both the therapist and client use knowledge and experience to make progress.
Compassion-Focused Therapy
This approach encourages people to be compassionate toward themselves and others.
Conflict-Resolution Therapy
This approach teaches clients how to resolve conflicts with great results and minimal stress.
Core Process Psychotherapy [CPP]
CPP is a mindfulness-based approach that emphasizes awareness of body and mind for self-exploration and healing.
Dialectical Behavior Therapy [DBT]
DBT uses a problem solving and acceptance-based framework — among other strategies —- usually to treat severe and chronic mental health conditions and issues, including borderline personality disorder, suicidal thoughts, self-harming, eating disorders and PTSD.
Ego State Therapy
Based on psychodynamic therapy, ego state therapy operates under the principle that a person’s psyche is composed of identities and roles he or she takes on. It addresses these identities and the mental health issues they might be connected to.
Emotion-Focused Therapy [EFT]
EFT uses emotions as a source of healing and insight. It is especially effective for moderate depression, issues of childhood abuse and couples in the middle of a conflict.
Intensive Short-Term Dynamic Psychotherapy [ISTDP]
ISTDP helps clients permanently change character flaws in a short period of time by releasing emotional inhibitions and discussing the source of character issues.
Interpersonal Psychotherapy [IPT]
IPT focuses on interpersonal issues such as relationships and major life events. Its goal is to improve mood and interpersonal issues within 6-20 weeks.
Journey Therapy
In journey therapy the therapist guides the client on a mental and emotional journey to uncover repressed memories that have created issues in the present.
Jungian Psychotherapy
Jungian psychotherapy focuses on the balance of consciousness and unconsciousness. Clients can become more whole and well-adjusted by achieving this balance and exploring both sides.
Logotherapy
Logotherapy focuses on the pursuit of meaning and purpose in one’s life.
Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy
This therapy combines the best of CBT with mindfulness strategies that help clients assess thoughts in the present.
Motivation Enhancement Therapy [MET]
MET focuses on improving motivations to make positive changes and eliminate maladaptive patterns.
Narrative Therapy
Narrative therapy helps clients interpret their experiences as stories that give meaning to their lives and guide them. It encourages people to identify their skills, values and knowledge so they can use them to live well.
Positive Psychotherapy
This approach helps clients view their illness or issues in a positive way. It focuses on the abilities of the client, inner balance, storytelling and hope.
Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy [REBT]
REBT helps clients develop rational thinking to facilitate healthy emotional behavior and expression. It is similar to CBT.
Reality Therapy
Reality therapy focuses on present issues and encourages clients to change behavior that might be preventing them from addressing those issues. It operates under the principle that people experience distress when they are not meeting five basic needs: power, love/belonging, freedom, fun and survival.
Redecision Therapy
Redecision therapy helps clients examine messages from caretakers and adults in their childhood, as well as any negative decisions.
Relational Psychotherapy
Relational psychotherapy helps client become cognitively and emotionally healthy by forming and maintaining fulfilling relationships.
Schema Therapy
Schema therapy helps clients identify the cognitive and behavior patterns that are causing or maintaining their mental health issues. It is especially effective in treating borderline personality disorder.
Solution-Focused Brief Therapy [SFBT]
SFBT focuses on goals for the present and future rather than addressing the past or symptoms.
Symbolic Modeling
This therapeutic approach uses symbols, progressive questioning, metaphors and modeling to enact positive change.
and also, not listed in TalkSpace’s article Cognitive behavioral therapy [CBT] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy
~~~~~~~~~~
The thing I’m creating has buried elements of Cognitive behavioral therapy [CBT], Dialectical Behavior Therapy [DBT], and Emotion-Focused Therapy [EFT] in the art/music lessons which is great because then the traumatized child can just experience it as a fun art/music lesson rather than “therapy.”
Hopefully PeaceMaker can take it from this point (as I won’t have time for months and might forget this thread in the meanwhile) but I highly recommend checking out the intro science lessons on https://www.jove.com/syllabus-mapping whilst it’s free until mid-June. Good luck!
Yea, well LRH had his own private Dr. OT 7 or 8 guy by the name of Dr. Denk….who then died of cancer himself.
I guess the further up the bridge you get, the more PTS you get.
Correcting the data here. Dr Denk did not die of cancer. The cancer was in remission when he passed away. Dr Denk died of the effects of chemo and radiation. It was a long, painful, course of treatment and one from which he simply could not recover. Please be kind to one another.
Hello Rachel.
I was a patient of your husband in 2002. Had the Freewinds execs followed his advice I would have recovered from AIDS much more quickly instead of almost dying in early 03. Instead they sent me to James Keppler, a chiropractor who you probably know. He is a good chiro, but what I needed was a good doctor. Gene was a good man and a good doctor. I hop that you are doing well.
Dear Mike and friends,
I am pleased to see Mike receives and reads posts from the Dror Friends blog and am honored when Mike says:
“Let me say at the outset that Dani and Tami Lemberger are wonderful people and personal friends and I thoroughly enjoy their company when they come to visit with us.”
However, there are a few points to clarify:
1. I have no idea what are views held by Scientologists and what Scientologists think. We, people practicing Hubbard’s philosophy “independently”, think that the CoS is a mafia-like operation headed by a lunatic, David Miscavige. Thousands practice Hubbard’s Tech outside the Church yet their views and ideas are diverse and conflicting. Many, for example, consider me a “squirrel” and “SP” because I also practice the upper OT Levels compiled by Bill Robertson who some say was crazy.
2. the “Indie Scientologists” only agree that the enemy, Miscavige, is a nut, a criminal, who betrayed Ron Hubbard and destroyed the Church and Hubbard’s reputation.
3. I do know, have total certainty, that Man (or Woman) is not a meat body controlled by the brain. We are, for sure, a Spirit and we live much longer than the lifespan of the body.
This is not novel and is not a Ron Hubbard idea. It is supported by all religions and many wise persons throughout history.
For a full discussion of the Human Spirit, please see Chapter 3. of the book I wrote, LifePower:
https://life-pwr.com/books/
4. The article Mike references above was written by Aviv Bershadsky, auditor and C/S at Dror. Tami and I did not read it prior to publication and did not participate in writing it. The views expressed are Aviv’s.
We, at Dror, do follow the guidelines issued by the Israeli Ministry of Health regarding Corona. We keep clean, wear masks and watch our distance. I am in the “risk age” but am quite healthy. We go regularly to see our family doctor and watch the body’s health like all readers of Mike’s blog.
5. However, if it is true that Man or Woman are a Spirit, not just a body, then improving the condition of the person, a spiritual entity, does also improve his physical state. This too is not a novel idea. All medical doctors agree that stress is a major factor in many illnesses.
I see daily people going out of sessions and they all would state that it helps them keep healthy, energetic, alert.
And most our public are smart and successful individuals, just a few are “soft in the head”. (joke)
6. I have no doubt that Hubbard’s Tech “works”. Mike or another commentator said it’s a substitute for “belief”. Oh, well. No need to argue, there’s ample evidence, I see it daily. Maybe I’m dreaming or fantasizing. All are welcome to come to Dror and inspect!
Thank you for the attention. Best wishes for health and happy Passover (for the Jews) and happy Easter (all the rest), Dani Lemberger
You seem to contradict yourself. You say you have total certainty that their is a spirit. You then use “If there is a spirit” or something like that.
Don’t get me wrong. I appreciate that you help people. I just see contradictions in Hubbard and the same contradictions in your post. Perhaps this is formed by Hubbard’s basic Axioms and Assumptions which are not scientific at all. Keep up the good work, however. But you need more polish.
Hey George, I read both your comments.
If Hubbard (and myself) was wrong about the Spirit, then the question remains: What is Life? From seeing hundreds of very smart and sane individuals go past life and whole-track on auditing, without any prompting or prior instruction, there is no doubt in my mind that we are spirits, not bodies with a sophisticated brain.
I say, “if it is true that Man or Woman are a Spirit” since that was my basic premise from which follows the next statement. And I allow for the fact that the readers of this forum may disagree with me.
Hubbard undoubtedly made mistakes, especially in Admin, disconnection policy and stuff like that. Also in Tech and OT Levels, my personal opinion is that he died (“Dropped the body”) before completing the entire Bridge. So others have come later and have added to it. Each person may choose what to accept, what to reject.
I can see daily great results with lasting, long-term benefit through auditing. So myself and friends here continue to practice it. It’s all done open and free to observe.
You have a perfect right to believe in the spirit. The Western tradition does affirm it in Catholics and other Christians. Personally I have been a Buddhist for a very long time and reject Western Civilization.
Belief in the spirit goes back to about the 3rd Century AD in Western thought. Here is a quotation from Iamblichus who was a Neo-Platonist writing about that time. Most of the Occult books have been burned so we get an incomplete picture.
His book “On Egyptian Mysteries” survived despite the burning and fires. He says in Chapter 3:
“the races of Superior beings are not in the bodies, but govern them from outside. Hence they do not undergo changes with the bodies.”
Hubbard was not the first to talk about this. Actually, Iamblichus was a “Theurgist” who specialized in magic by bringing in the gods. I have found that his ideas are far more effective than Hubbard and find further development in Blavatsky who Hubbard copied and distorted. Good luck.
Hi George,
I gather from what you say above that we agree that life is spiritual or there is a “race of Spiritual beings” that govern the bodies. This is an interesting quote from Iamblichus whom I have never heard of.
It would have been a good section to quote in LifePower. Oh well, on next revision. Thanks for the data!
You probably missed my reference to the fact that I am 100% Buddhist. The essence of Original Buddhism is that the Buddha was silent on the issue of the spirit. So I cannot agree with you. You cannot put words in my mouth. When Buddhism is fully understood, the idea of the spirit becomes irrelevant. If you read my book “Lucifer’s Bridge (2015)”, you will see that Hubbard made the same mistake. It is difficult for Western thinkers to get this idea.
Hi Dani, thank you for being “brave” enough to comment in this forum, which is known to attract a lot of comments hostile to anything Scientological.
I can see your point of view in that by eliminating the troubling behaviors of the Church of Scientology (disconnection, Fair Game, excess regging, etc.) and retaining any introspective activities that one has found to be personally beneficial, you arrive at a condition which you find acceptable.
My question, and the question of many others presumably, is that do you find it troubling that many of these awful policies which you reject actually had their origins with Hubbard himself? The fact he lied to many people about his war record to boost false claims that Dianetics was like a miracle cure for all sorts of ailments, which it has proven certainly not to be, is well known. It was his own brutal, narcissistic personality who conceived the policies of disconnection and Fair Game, which Miscavige simply carried forth. There are plenty of people still around today who remember Hubbard ordering men and women to be overboarded and children punished in the chain locker on board his ships, among numerous other acts of cruelty.
Does one simply ignore all these abuses, and lies, and carry forth with the Hubbard tech? Or is the tech tainted by the questionable morals of its creator? Is practicing Hubbard’s Scientology morally justifiable?
Dear WW,
I am well aware of the abuses and errors or offenses committed by Hubbard himself. There’s too much evidence of this, that even someone blinded or deluded like myself cannot deny this. For example, I am currently reading the books written by Janis Gillham Grady.
I have chosen to evaluate the philosophy itself and its application, the personality of Hubbard is of lesser importance. I can give a longer explanation of this but it is beyond the scope of commenting on Mike’s blog.
As I’ve already stated, the benefits of Hubbard’s Tech are immense and that is what my friends and I focus on. To make the Tech itself understood and applied I have written a series of books under the LifePower label and there you will find my answers to these questions.
Dani – welcome and thank you for sharing your post with us here. I spent an enormous amount of money and time “going clear” in Scientology yet I was not able to achieve that because the State of Clear had changed and mutated while L Ron Hubbard was in charge. What is a Scientology CLEAR? Today, what do you say it is? Why did Hubbard change the definition? Or maybe he didn’t change it and David Miscavige changed it? What do you say about it? I sincerely would like to meet 1 Clear who has the qualities promised by L Ron Hubbard. I tried to go Clear in Scientology and because I did not attest to the wording that I was mocking up my reactive mind but could stop it and control it, I was given programs , sec checks, FPRD and many other harmful things to do in Scientology. It really messed me up. What does a Clear have to say in the Indi field, that they were mocking it up? Because THAT is not what L R H promised. He said we would get rid of the reactive mind and THAT is why I did Scientology. Am I understanding that the Clear cognition was changed? Can I meet 1 Clear on this planet today that got rid of their reactive mind? Thank you for any light you can help shed on this subject.
Hello B.C.,
I wish I could give you a short and easy answer here. If you really want to know what I think please leave a message on our website: life-pwr.com.
I describe the State of Clear in the book I wrote, also named LifePower.
I believe I have attained Clear but I am far from perfect or absolute health or wisdom.
I’ve also gained a lot from doing the OT Levels, up to OT 7 at Flag and beyond that in the “indie” field.
I’m very happy for what I’ve done but am far from super-human or some super-person.
I’m still just a regular guy, but a nice one, like Mike said in his post above.
Contact me if you have any questions. Maybe it’s already answered.
Good luck, best wishes!
There are many more people in this world who believe that praying to some god or another will protect them from all harm, or, conversely, some god or another makes all the decisions, which may or may not include harm to yourself, so there is nothing to do but praise the god or gods and go do your favorite activity, whatever that may be. The “go into session immediately and rehabilitate yourself as a spiritual being” type is not different from the other denials.
It’s simply the “head in the sand” method of coping, of healthcare, of rationalization and justification of life’s events.
Or Death’s events.
Weak logic arises from a lack of critical thinking, and critical thinking is just another way of saying you are thinking for yourself, figuring out things for your self. That was a skill set that Hubbard had his followers discard by the side of the road, or should I say overboard off the Apollo. Hubbard, comparing to the coronavirus pandemic, might have said “What’s the fuss? 50,000 are killed on highways every year – must we outlaw highways? Or at least make a bigger fuss about them than about the coronavirus?? Maybe demand vehicle distancing?” That is an argument that is easily punctured by a few critical thoughts.. But it is the type of argument Hubbard would have loved, and which would easily work on his followers because the authoritarian Hubbard forced them to discard their critical thinking skills, and instead adopt Hubbard’s worldview exclusively.
Hubbard was not a good person to follow when it comes to much of anything, and especially not allowing his followers free rein to think for themselves. Sadly, there are otherwise good people who still have not regained their ability to look at the world without having an old dead con man named L. Ron Hubbard interpret it for them.
Jon Atack talks about an interview of Hubbard by Charlie Nan (sp?) that revealed important things about Hubbard the man. It wasn’t recorded, and has received little attention, but I think it is true, and important. In 1968 Charlie put it to Hubbard “this is a scam, isn’t it?” and Hubbard went “Well, of course it is, don’t be an idiot, of course it is.” Next Hubbard was asked “why do you do it?” to which Hubbard replied “Well it’s very nice being able at the end of every day to tell your wife that you’ve made ten thousand dollars – that day!” That was in 1968, today’s equivalent would be about $76,000 per day. But money was only one aspect of his motivation. The most chilling motivation was revealed when Hubbard told Charlie “The reason I really do it is I like to catch the clever ones and reel them in.”
So Hubbard loved taking down smart people. He enjoyed fooling intelligent people, and he enjoyed making money off people who should know better than to believe in what he was selling.
There are still a few, not many, but a few of those “clever ones” who were “reeled in” by Hubbard, perhaps even reeled in even after Hubbard was dead. They remain reeled in,
despite all the revelations of Hubbard the man, and Hubbard the non-scientist.
Thanks for this one.
My pleasure, George.
I only read Aviv’s last paragraph. This sentence probably sums it up. “You should go in session immediately!” Lol
I think Hubbs once said, “When the unusual occurs do the usual.” Something like that.
I thought there was something truthful in that. I’m now not sure that that it applies in every situation. The valuable thing that statement gave me when I was in was a sense of order and chaos.
In fairness to Indies, many people have attempted to use auditing procedures to delve ever deeper into “the mind” in a quest to achieve “spiritual freedom”. Rathbun tried for years and eventually concluded that scn procedures even outside of cult have a 50-50 chance of making one better or worse. Maybe it depends on how far you go with it but that goes into a discussion of the OT levels. I quit soon after “attesting to Clear” and don’t consider I suffered any harm.
This nutjob should have seen how psychotic El Con Tubbolard was about having his living spaces cleaned and sterilized by his “Household Unit” Sea Ogre members.
Wynski. Laughing. A speck of dust on a piece of furniture was enough to start the alarms. It would become the flap of the day. Stuff to stay in history on an OOD (order of the day). And heavy ethics for everyone.
OMG Loosing, you bring back memories (aka nightmares) with that 100% accurate portrayal of Ron the Neurotic (Soon to be a new “Ron Series” booklet)
Wynski. Just laughing
They are also my friends – Dror Leaders and their staff – but I have a different view.
Just with the first phrase ‘ a problem to persist must contain a lie’ – I see the matter, or at least part of it, as we all having abused the planet ecologically, devouring its food, creating a mentality of consumption only and having a huge gap between very rich and very poor.
Nature alone has expressed our abuses with tsunamis, fires, hurricanes, over heated temperatures and so on, seas habitants dying, and so on. This is the problem.
The lie is that many just ignore it and thus the problem persists and will get bigger.
And this is just part of the situation this planet is being confronted with just now.
SILVIA – I Agree – this virus is just another example of “Gaia’s Revenge’ (Gaia being the greek word for Earth). The biggest threat to her existence is the abuse she has suffered at the hands of human-kind; the only way she can fight back is through plagues and natural disaster (such as eathquakes, tsuamis, hurricanes, etc.).
Silvia. I agree with you. Nature is life and life is above everything. Beside this after 70 years of existence if this “religion” (and I was part of it) hasn’t made any significant breakthrough that results in some tangible change, well one can suppose that has a lie in it that creates a problem thus becomes a ridge. In other words it works for a while only when you push it hard using your own blood.
Another thing that is regrettable in my opinion is what they also do in “official” Scientology, that is, to list the deaths from other diseases and to say how much less Covid’s are and therefore the SPs are behind.
Sorry but it is NOT OBVIOUS that they are ADDITIONAL deaths and that they are also increasing? Do scientists need to explain it as if they were 5 years old?
Also, please, let’s stop with this bullshit that whoever is not PTS does not catch the virus. Even if this PTS data was true, what’s the use of saying it?
Most Scientologists and staff have family members, friends, neighbors who are neither clear nor on the lines therefore all possible PTS.
So ALL these people should still be careful. So it is useless and dangerous for them to say that they don’t need to keep needed distance. Incompetents and criminals.
PTS = Potential Trouble Source; the name is accurate and revealing. What is the trouble that PTS’s threaten? They threaten the cash flow going upstream to Hubbard. They threaten Hubbard’s span of control over his followers, now residing in Miscavige. Anything that slows or in any way stops people from donating or providing near-slave labor could cause great harm to the cash flow to Hubbard. Anything that tends to reduce the control of the organization leader threatens the existence of the entire organization, or so the leader believes.
Hubbard wrote into Scientology a few grave sins, and PTS was one of them, because those people have the power to lift the veil of secrecy and control. They threaten to bring the followers into a clarity of thought and freedom of action that is anathema to the workings of Scientology.
Hubbard recognized the threat posed by people who exposed his con, if only in a small way. PTS was made to be a grave sin to his Religion. He made it so, by definition, and it remains that way to this day.
All hail PTS people!
Thank you Ammo, yes when I was on thd lines I remember people just scared at the idea the could get assigned the status of PTS. Really scared. Then long handlings ending up usually with a disconnection or additional donations. Sad.
When I was infected with HIV and it progressed to full- blown AIDS I did not “catch” the virus. It was injected with a needle into a vein in my arm. To say that I had to be PTS to get the virus is the same as saying that if you put a 45 to someone’s head and pull the trigger, the gun will not fire unless the person is PTS.
But in this case, if the person was NOT PTS before the trigger was pulled, he will be afterwards.
On the other hand, the bleeding ulcer I had WAS caused by a PTS situation and was handled by a PTS Rundown I received later.
When I was found to have HIV, nobody have me any PTS handling or any other Scn. Their response was” He is as good as dead so get him off of my fucking ship.
“No disconnection. No Fair Game. No hard sell regging.”
I must admit to a great curiosity as to where this kind of policy originated. Ordinarily, this scam would never associate itself with any such kind of reasonable policy. Does anyone know who originated this and perhaps how and why it was originated?
What are their prices like? If they’re not exorbitant, then they wouldn’t need to hard-sell.
When you tell the truth all the time (even when it reflects badly on you) you don’t have to keep track of your lies.
Leslie. I love it. Just truth and freedom.
Outstanding post! Bravo!
Otherles – you are absolutely Right about that. In fact, you don’t even have to Think about the truth – It’s Always There!
Many years ago I sold cars for about a year. One salesman told me he never kept track of what he told prospects since he just lied to everyone!
Most people assume car salesmen lie so I guess he didn’t want to challenge their fixed opinions – lol
Indeed! It has been said “In order to be a successful liar you have to have a good memory”…..i.e. You have to remember exactly what you said and to whom you said it……..
Even LRH eventually realized that he was wrong about the spirit ALONE healing the body … Witness HCO B Physically Ill PCs and Pre OTs, about full and searching physicals … (circa 1970)
Actually, after LRH pronounced the absolute cause of illness (PTSness), as usual, he moved off of it . (Just as he did with the SINGLE source of aberration , the ONLY reason people leave a study, etc etc etc). If you will all remember, when Ron finally deduced that people could get sick and not be PTS, instead of admitting he was wrong, he simply called it … FALSE PTS!!!! Voila! You are sick, but “false PTS” …
Of course, Scientologists really ARE kind of PTS … after all, they are members of a suppressive group …
I like that he had to define further types of PTS, because it’s all bullshit and doesn’t explain all cases. Guy, in touch with no-one, gets sick. Where’s the SP? So Hubbard dreams up “Type 2”. Problem solved: you can always find someone in the past who suppressed you. You don’t realise that PTS theory is a crock.
Imaberrated. Laughing. It’s true when one need to keep something moving because this thing can’t do it by itself but one want others to believe it does it, then this is a real crock!
OMG! They fall for the same BS propaganda. Well let’s see if they are immune to COVID-19 since they are less pts than Others.
“Well let’s see if they are immune to COVID-19 since they are less pts than Others.”
I worry about how many people are strengthened in their confirmation bias that their beliefs protect them. After all, it’s because the virus spreads so quickly and because our health care system was switched to “just in time” production that this virus is so dangerous now — because the small percentage who need hospitalization overload our health care system, and we didn’t keep PPE and ventilators in stock, so millions could die who would not have died if we were prepared or if the virus didn’t spread so quickly. But its actual fatality rate, when the health care system is not overloaded, is pretty low. So then all these people have their beliefs in the protection provided by LRH “tech” or God or lucky rabbit’s foot confirmed. Which puts them and others in greater danger the next time it makes a difference (when they could choose a less dangerous path but believe their magic will protect them again).
Thanks, Cat – this is a very good description of why this virus is so deadly. For those of us at greatest risk (my husband and I fall in that category) the only thing to do is stay put and hope that will keep us from contracting the thing. That, and be enormously thankful for all those who are out there putting themselves at risk – health care workers, delivery people and all those still working to keep the wheels turning. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
What I spontaneously ask myself is what these independents really think of LRH’s death. For them it is true that he finished all the work (therefore all OT levels etc) so it was time to drop the body and Ray Mitoff went to him and gave him the final assist and the rest is the story that David and Pat they told everyone. Or did he die sick (and therefore would have been by his own definition PTS) as many seem to have shown?
I don’t know about what Others believe, but after having served for 22 years I know for a fact that LRH died miserably, he did not finish any advanced level above 8 and what they sell as Ot8 is a bunch of BS. It’s pretty obvious that PTS tech did not work on LRH, so do not be bothered if it does not work at all.
TT,
Agreed. After OT8 flopped with the ‘old tech’ it is my belief that Ron went searching for something new to, again, get adulation. Down the dark hole (black magic anyone?) he went and encountered a Balrog of Morgoth. End of story.
TTG. Thank you and I trust you for what you say. I am not bothered at all. My question was mainly about what they really think. The most of scientogist believe he left after having finished all the job to go to tgt 2. But this tale was made by DM and Pat.
I bought that. Made logical sense to me. He completed his work here, so, as a backup to that work, he went to another planet to introduce it there. He wouldn’t have to discover anything, just publish it in their language. Makes sense, right? If this world were destroyed, the work would lost, so spread it around the universe. It’s a big job, with many destinations, so I’m not sure why some Scientologists believe he will come back.
That’s the logic that suckered me in. I no longer believe that. I believe that he died, sick, crazy and virtually alone.
Imaberrated. If one looks at the overall scenario with calm he will start findind more and more “out points” and contradictory facts. Then one has to accept that this is what he observed.
Remember that Ray Mithoff allegedly ‘forgot’ what was on OT IX and X.
Just let that sink in for a second. The Senior C/S Int, a man who is the world’s most highly trained Scientologist, FORGOT what Hubbard told him about OT IX and X.
Now, this suggests to me that if the world’s foremost expert on Scientology ‘technology’ forgets something as fundamental to the ‘religion’ as the contents of OT IX and X, then Scientology is a complete crock of shit.
ParttimeSP. I didn’t knew that. Damn Thank you.
It’s in this video here with Mike and Aaron:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHZHWl1UvWk
Partime SP. Thank you. I just watch it. Great.