This post was prompted by some back and forth with one of our commenters. It got me thinking, and though I may not be the brightest bulb in the chandelier, sometimes I cast a bit of light onto the shadowy world of scientology.
I recently posted about the ineffectiveness of the massive investment scientology made into TV advertising. It has resulted in no appreciable increase in interest, though it is somewhat debatable that this is what they even care about rather than providing the latest reason to collect money from their members to buy more ads.
But that poses the question: what WOULD get people interesting in scientology?
With all the negative press and internet coverage it would appear to be a lost cause. Millions spent on ads only results in twitter posts, online comments and more media coverage deriding the efforts to suck people in, while repeating stories of abuse. Scientology has tried “success stories” and “I Am A Scientologist” pitches. Nobody buys them. They are always so contrived.
The ONLY thing I can think of would be if scientology could actually prove it worked. That it does in fact provide the miracles it promises — increased IQ, decreased reaction time, curing all psychosomatic ills. Happy marriages. Better relationships. Control over money… And on and on. Dozens of specific claims that are contained in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard that are the gospel of scientology. Demonstrate those things are obtainable, routine results and the masses would literally be beating down the doors to get some of the miracles. Scientology would become the new Cabbage Patch Kids or Pokemon. It would be a sensation.
Just the improved reaction time promise would have every professional race car driver, tennis player, skeet shooter and boxer lining up at the door — and cost would literally be no object. Nobody in those sports (and many others besides) would be able to compete without scientology auditing if it really did improve reaction time. It would be like every other athlete in the field was doping and in order to match their level, all would have to follow suit.
Some argue that matters of faith cannot be tested or measured. And that is of course true. But scientology, uniquely for a religion, claims there is no faith or belief required. That it is a technology that is applied and when it is applied it works 100% of the time and brings the expected result. That lends itself to measurement and study. Reaction time for example is EASY to measure.
So, what if scientology had an INDEPENDENT study to tout — one that proved it worked as it claims? A study that could not be dismissed as “fake” or “biased.” A true, independent, scientifically conducted test. “Harvard University study finds the practice of scientology DOES increase IQ and speed reaction time.” “The London School of Economics proclaims scientology auditing increases earning capacity”… Now THOSE are ads (and front page stories) that would drive millions into scientology orgs and make it the most popular activity on earth.
Could such a study be done? Of course. These sorts of study are conducted all the time. When you bring up this idea to scientologists, they respond with “but unless you are trained in scientology, you cannot test it.” You don’t need to be trained in scientology to test IQ or reaction time or to observe whether scientologists contract the flu less often than the general population. We are not talking testing the claims about OT levels and recall of Whole Track. No, the really down-to-earth stuff that scientology claims.
There are only be two limitations on the ability to conduct such a survey:
1. The cost
2. Access to willing subjects to conduct the study on.
Scientology has plenty of money. For a fraction of what they spent on TV ads in the last couple of months, or foregoing the marble in the lobby and the custom rugs in the hallways of a couple of their empty ideal orgs, they could commission the most extensive study of scientology anyone could want.
They too have access to all scientologists. The people that actually believe scientology IS helping them. Not the hundreds of thousands or millions who have tried it and believe it is bunk. Use the BEST possible people for the study from scientology’s perspective. Those conducting the study would have to figure out how to circumvent the natural inclination of scientologists to lie about their accomplishments in scientology, but people who do these sort of studied deal with bias all the time. You can’t fake IQ or reaction times. You can lie about whether you get sick or your headaches have been cured. BUT, if scientology really WANTED to promote this, and was sure of the outcome, they could instruct people to actually tell the truth in response to being asked about their medical history and they could be verified through medical records. With a large enough sample, it would be possible to tell if scientologists are less likely to be sick than wogs. Is their vision better than average? Have they actually thrown away their glasses after Dianetics?
Hubbard made tremendous claims for scientology. His disciples continue to assert these claims today.
With certainty that these things are true THEY should be the ones figuring out how to conduct these tests and prove the claims, knowing that if they could get a reputable, independent test done and publish the results it would not only vindicate their belief, it would turn scientology into an overnight success story.
Of course, they know this. They even know how to get a university to conduct a study — they paid for a big one to demonstrate the “economic impact” of scientology in Clearwater when they wanted to pitch their value to the city.
There is only ONE, very obvious, reason this has NOT happened.
They KNOW they will never be able to prove scientology is more effective than a sugar pill. And even worse, if they commissioned such a study and it turned out to support the placebo theory, that news would get out. They are unwilling to risk that outcome.
The fact that such a study, of even the simplest claim (“we raise IQ”) tells you everything you need to know about the REAL faith scientologists have in scientology. It is perhaps the only truth about scientology and faith — scientologists actually do not have faith that scientology is provably workable.
Hey scientology — put your money where your faith is.
As I recall, when Hubbard was in England, he claimed that the Olympic rifle team could improve accuracy using Dianetics and Scientology. The experiment failed.
uuummm ….. Let me get this right , If Scamology says ” no faith or belief required and that it is a technology that is applied ” then how can it call it’s self a ” Church ” .
That sounds more like a business selling a product for a profit …. Oh I forgot , their already doing that !!!!
So if that is fact then surely the IRS must have grounds to revoke their ” exempt ” status ??? !!! .
It doesn’t matter. They only use the shape of the cross to appear as a church, a safe haven. I don’t care what that crazy bastard LRH said about shit! He was an insane man, with thoughts of grandiosely. I can’t call them a congregation, all of the follower’s are worshipping NO ONE! It’s not a church. All of these cult members giving their heart’s, soul’s and money to one man! Are you kidding me??? No advertisement would entice me or a family member into Scientology……Ever!
I’m calling bullshit.
The thing is – you can market the hell out of any organization – but it doesn’t mean you should.
The CoS is like every other prosperity doctrine church.
They offer the same things, in some instances requiring a lot less cash…
But the dynamics are the same.
“But that poses the question: what WOULD get people interesting in scientology?”
Hopefully nothing.
Hopefully the individuals do some deep soul searching, recovery work and ask themselves some very hard questions and realise that this is it.
It is what we make it whether there exists a promise of an afterlife or not.
Learn what HEALTHY is, roll up your sleeves, help bring others behind you to where you are – and reach for a hand of someone who has been where you’ve been.
What would get people interested in a cult?
Lighting a match and starting over in one’s own house.
yep, where’s the beef? Or where are the clears and OT’s?
OT8 is the supposed to be the first real OT level, and yet Hubbard died and left it in “note form” for any OT level above OT8?
LOL
of course the other shore story is 10,000 on OT7 to reduce the entheta theta ratio. LOL
And of course the ultimate shore story of why Hubbard died. LOL To not be encumbered by the body, LOL
Gotta luv the shore story of ideal orgs. Major fail. LOL
Hubbard did indeed trick me thru his sublime writing.
Ron the writer of stories, to create images in our minds of a ideal scene.
PS:
Shermanspeak is like Yoda speak, LOL
http://www.yodaspeak.co.uk/index.php
Which is also Hubbard speak, LOL
Let’s get Tommy Cruise, Johnny Travolta and Greta Van Susteren on stage to show us how it’s done. True Ohhhh Teeees that have mastered the universe.
Dave can em cee the whole stinkin performance to be sure it is done wright. Marion Pouw and Mike Sutter can be on scene to enforce unethical behavior as is always required when a dildo is present.
What would get people interested in Scientology?
In a word: service. Not the cynical, PR seeking, 3-VMs-with-a-camera-crew self aggrandizement, but true service to help out others. Service on wog terms, not scientology terms. So, no more touch assists. No more handing out WTH booklets. No more “donations” of Hubbard books. No more showing up without tools or supplies. No more untrained and unorganized forces that have no idea what to do and get in the way.
Instead, mucking out flooded homes. Providing needed food and supplies (paid for by COS). Chainsaws. Tractors. Leave the camera crews at home. The tshirts are ok, but leave the huge brightly colored signs home.
Sea Org members could discontinue a lot of stupid stuff and take those hours and resources and just give them away. Instead of all those dumb, vicious games to up your stats by Thursday afternoon, go help someone out. No more dumb chores like writing letters to people who want to be left alone, and putting records in alphabetical order.
With as hard as COS members work (public as well as sea org), just take them off of useless tasks and put them on true service to the community. This would free up a huge amount of resources for good.Of course it would require two things: First, that the doctrine of Exchange be confined to the dustbin of history. If the IOS is proof of anything, it’s that Exchange is not a central tenet of scientology any more.
The second thing is for scientologists to cast off their notions of superiority to wogs. Serve wogs in ways that will help wogs, not bewilder them. And there is nothing like a ton of service that reduces arrogance to almost nil.
“We deliver what we promise”. Quote: HCOB.
Even if they delivered just 10% of what they promised would get people interested…..
As it is, not only do they not deliver what they promise, they actually make people’s lives WORSE. Therefore they are delivering negative percentages of what they promise………..
In my opinion, (and experience), you get promised this, that and the other. That’s just to get something out of YOU – Usually money……… Once they’ve got that you then get “handled” into accepting that you’re NOT going to get what they promised!!
God, I used to hate that term…… “Handle” or “Handled”. To me it simply means “Control the hell out of him/her”………………………..
Why bother doing a survey to see the effects of the tech on people – it was created by someone who lies to and enslaves his own staff and then runs them down like criminals with private investigators when they try to leave so they won’t bad mouth him.
You don’t like or agree with my tech – let me beat you over the head until you do.
That was his MO from day one.
The first Clear was John McMasters – he was then declared SP.
The man who loaned him money to buy Saint Hill, Reg Sharp, was then declared SP so he didn’t have to pay him back.
Both Miscavige and Hubbard get their glory out of lying to, enslaving, harassing, humiliating, criticizing and denigrating others.
How can anyone who does that to another human being create anything of any value to anybody?
Hubbard took his texts from others and reworked it into his own mental enslavement. How can that man come up with something good?
Scientology takes you through the darkness “to get to the light” – there are spiritual beliefs that simply get you there with pure lightness and positivity. That makes 100% more sense……
Hubbard was not clearing anybody, he was enslaving people into his trap.
Look at the scenario right now – there might be a few hundred who “believe” they are clear and feel better…… but there are multiple, multiple thousands of people out there who feel they have been destroyed by Scientology, that Scientology has literally destroyed them and their family and taken all of their money.
The bad by far outweighs any of the good.
That is the survey right there, the survey is already done.
Miscavige keeps his staff in a bubble filled with lies and false images of Ideal Orgs so they still believe they are “clearing the planet”, yet they are simply enslaved and lied to. Miscavige has left a path of utter destruction behind him for the past 36 years since he obtained any kind of power. He has never had compassion for his fellow man, only greed for money and power and he will harm others who get in this way.
Like the post.
Also, I didn’t know that about St Hill.
Terri,
Thanks, you have summed it up perfectly. And you worked directly with Hubbard.
Look, Mike Rinder, the Tech works.
Face it.
With what other proven technology can a tomato have been given sentience, and where that tomato’s brilliant comments on blogs can be posted daily.
Only by the grace of LRH go I.
Dave F. IQ ≠ Morality.
Miscavige lives a life of luxury with slaves at his beck and call and his own personal fortune secure. And probably will be for life.
Nope. Miscavige is doomed.
I enjoy the sentiment waryc’s and hope it comes true but, I wouldn’t bet any meaningful amount of $ on that outcome.
I’d bet a LOT on it.
Yes scientology might survive, but that asshole Miscavige is going downl
Interesting thought piece, Mike.
Unfortunately, I think that there is plenty of evidence in the world around us that there is still a “market” for false belief and cult-like groups, pseudo-science and quack therapies, and products sold on hype that can’t perform up to their promises (besides physical items, a lot of services like investment advice – witness Bernie Madoff – don’t pan out, see what Warren Buffet has to say on that subject).
I think that Scientology could theoretically tap into the same sort of such currents that it did originally, but it has the problems of having acquired a bad reputation, having accumulated too long a history of failure to get by with making alluring promises, and being too dated in its approach and “product” for the modern market. Not only would it be hard for it to reorient or even reinvent itself under the best of circumstances, but they are, of course, largely locked in to following Hubbard’s dictates that are not aging well.
Again, the reality test of what the independents have – and haven’t – done is illustrative of whether there are any possibilities for the “tech” freed from the constraints of CofS, and it is not promising. The reality-check test of a lot of claims, including conspiracy theories such as suppressed “free energy,” is why in all these years hasn’t someone somewhere accomplished it, particularly in places with an interest in gaining an advantage and presumably free from the control of vested financial interests (including “psychs”) such as Soviet Russia, Red China, or North Korea; or even aggressively innovative countries desperate to develop themselves, like South Korea and Brazil (where there is, for instance, a lot of use of alternative fuels and energy sources)
A while back I ran across a corporate listing indicating that the old Hubbard Dianetics Research Foundation still exists on paper. Even some cult-like groups such as UC, (the “Moonies”) TM and SGI – not to mention some of the more questionable sects of more established religions – have established or acquired their own universities, though of course they have been unable to produce proper and acceptable research supporting any of their claims in the realms of psychology, sociology or science. And at other universities there are actually plenty of “new age” and metaphysical types, Buddhists, and so on, including a lot of aging “boomers” with tenure or protected emeritus status and thus nothing to lose, who would jump on and support any good research that came out of an institution looking into unconventional subjects.
It’s a fallacious “straw man” sort of argument to claim that valid research is being completely suppressed by supposedly monolithic vested interests. There are academics at places like Berkeley and UC Boulder who would be all over any good research that proved unconventional and non-mainstream theories – not to mention, again, the rest of the world, including countries where pseudo-science sometimes even has advocates in the highest levels of government.
Also, I’m fairly certain that one important reason that Hubbard didn’t want research into Dianetics and Scientology, is that he knew that they produced unacceptably high rates of adverse effects such as “PTS” psychosis, which was exactly the problem with some of the therapies such as abreaction that he borrowed from. But in his end-justifies-the-means world with “big beings” and Kha-Khans, he considered it acceptable to break a few feeble-minded people and weak spirits in the process of trying to make powerful thetans – it’s a sort of spiritual Darwinism, and almost a type of occult ritual sacrifice.
There are some other interesting points on this topic, that I’m going to make in responses to individual comments.
So, IF Miscavige’s IQ was RAISED, considering the IDIOT he is NOW, what must he have been like, BEFORE Scientology . . . LOL !
Dave F.
Ummmm…A blithering idiot? Hey! I took a shot.
Research as a general concept might sound simple but when you get into the details it’s a massive subject. Here’s a scn spin off group which claims it’s results are backed up by studies and/or research. They have Facilitators/Practioners working with Viewers/Clients addressing communication, problems, regrets and “rightness” as well as attitudes emotions, sensations and pains.
https://www.tira.org/ability-enhancement/
Richard, TIR is the work of Dr. “Sarge” Gerbode, a trained psychological professional and once-prominent and successful Scientology mission holder, who then backed David Mayo’s ACC. If there’s anyone with the qualifications, experience and background – and deep pockets – to do research into the subject, it’s him.
I would characterize TIR as having had to take Dianetics back to what might be called the “book one” essentials of one-on-one counseling without any device such as an e-meter* – basically, what a lot of the old-timers now do – in order to get down to what was “workable.” And while it has it’s own distinctive form, the research shows that is not particularly more effective than any other psychotherapeutic modality.
It occurs to me, TIR may in fact represent the sort of independent effort to get the tech down to what “works” that is often talked about – but Gerbode had to be discrete about his work, so it doesn’t get the attention it should. Plus its example undermines the indies’ grandiose claims about the “tech” being far superior to anything else.
* Gerbode used an “indie” meter earlier on, but abandoned its use later; it’s a matter of what works – or doesn’t, really – and not of “tech” not being available outside the church due to intellectual property issues
PeaceMaker – Thanks for the information. TIR=Traumatic Incident Reduction. Simplifying, eliminating mental and physical trauma from oneself is the basic premise of Dianetics. Hubbard added grandiose claims to sell more books. Promoting “Feel better with Dianetics” wouldn’t have gotten much interest. LOL
Just to be contrary, I thought using an e-meter made auditing more accurate. Someone who had already done a thousand hours of auditing/counselling would develop observational skills. Not so with a newbie Dianetic auditor. Dianetic auditing had a standard set of eight or ten or questions and commands. As you mention above, Gerbode omitted the e-meter for whatever reasons he observed.
The entry level and reason for seeking “help” in TIR seems to be admitting one has “trauma”, similar to admitting something is “ruining” oneself in scn. Ruin is a broader concept. My ruin for getting into scn was that I hadn’t read a book in over a year and was feeling intellectually stagnant. Scientology was interesting. LOL
I’m done with scn and don’t need no more stinking trauma reduction.
P.S. Mr. Hubbard suggested that my “passengers” need trauma reduction. They’ll just have to wait.
I have read about TIR. It is VERY similar to what was done with soldiers returning to the USA during WW 2 who had suffered psychological trauma during combat. I watched films from that time of it being applied. This tech ( obviously ripped off and perverted by Hubtard as “dianetics”) is over 74 years old.
It’s so convenient…
Scientology is a science, you don’t have to believe it.
Scientology is a religion, you must live it, you cannot scientifically test it…
So convenient!
Brilliant assessment Mike. Actually, you’re a very bright light shining on Scientology. Thanks for the insights!!!
They’d lie about the results anyway, like they do now so it saves them time and money on a study but a great sales pitch. I’m so glad we have the internet and people who were in speaking out to save others. Thank you, Mr Rinder
I know Scientology is acting disingenuously when it claims to be a religion. However, I believe it actually fits the definition rather well!
Religion – a system of belief without scientific merit that depends upon the “faith” of its adherents. Often exorbitant claims of future benefits are promised in exchange for sacrifice in the present.
I know the above is my slightly jaded definition of religion. But I think my point has merit!
I read the book The Church of Scientology: A History of a New Religion. It makes your point rather well, actually. They do pass the basic test for a religion, in that they (barely) acknowledge God, a supreme being, or ‘Dynamic 8’. The point the author makes is that Scientology is a simulacrum of a traditional religion, using the symbolism, imagery, and adopting the terminology of, mostly, Abrahamic religions. For example, the word franchise was changed to mission.. franchise officer to mission officer.
Does that legitimize the group? Only if you are in agreement with their adoption of a superseding religious culture is real, which I don’t; regardless, unless you are in a position of power, they probably don’t care if you do or don’t. I think they’ve stopped caring journalists, ex-Scientologists, and the general public. If you are rich, famous, in public office or influential in your home country then its fair game.
Thanks! That’s one Scientology book I haven’t read yet. I’ll check it out.
I really hate to bolster the Scientology religious claim in any way, but I think under DM they’ve actually managed to earn the title, albeit in the most degenerate and corrupt way possible.
A wolf in sheep’s clothing is still a wolf. (although LRH liked to make reference to lions, not wolves.. predators are still predators however)
Another test that would be easy to verify would be “Exterior with full perception”.
What am I holding in my hand behind my back?
What color is the bedspread on the bed behind this closed door? etc. etc.
Show that…lines around the block.
A Boba Fett Star Wars action figure.
Blue with green swirls, pink flowers and red trim (it’s kinda yucky – get a new one, bro)
?
Absolutely spot on! So, I say to you, Scientology, where’s the beef? Where’s the fucking beef!!! There is no there, there. It’s all make believe.
What? No moo?
Well, I can give zemoooo.
Could it be that Xemoo has it?
Overrun, I hear you on this standard for being really OT, and, I can’t disagree, per se. But allow me to play Devil’s Advocate here for a bit:
Let’s pretend that something DID exist that could bring each of us into a state of being “stably exterior with full perception”. Something, some kind of practice, could accomplish this, let’s say.
This would mean that we’d ALL potentially be able to see everything, know everything, etc. Would that be good – really?
Think for a minute – wouldn’t being in that kind of operating state ALL THE TIME – make life awfully BORING?
You’d know everything about me. I’d know everything about you. We’d all know, see, feel, hear, etc. etc. everything about everything!
Now, this is just me, but I’m saying: boring.
Of course, there wouldn’t be any hunger or strife or illness or accidents or inconvenience or ANYTHING that we didn’t want – and that sounds like heaven – and its not like I or anyone WANTS these things, but, well, you get my point – if we could all be, have or do anything, or un-be, un-do or not-have anything, what WOULD be the point?
I’d be bored. Just saying.
But then I didn’t get that far up the Bridge. I’m not even Clear. I had rather pedestrian goals. I wanted to be more successful. I wanted to get over the grief over deaths of people. I wanted to meet someone and fall in love and have a happy relationship. The usual stuff that most people in and out of Scientology want. “Stably exterior with full perception was never a goal of mine. It still isn’t. (Which doesn’t mean I’m dissing it as someone ELSE’S goal, by the way! Our goals are our goals! )
Anyway, to continue: Once and a while in this operating state would be terrific! I mean, WOW! But, ALL the time? After a while, it would be (for me) like that Peggy Lee song: “Is That All There Is?”
I’m not saying I or anyone else would have to know everything, I’m just saying if you say you can do something, then do it. The only reason to hide and not do it would be because you can’t do it. Which is fine, but then don’t say you can do it. And I don’t think it would be boring, I think it would be fun.
Overrun, thanks for your response. I agree; if you say you can do something then do it! Put up or shut up, LOL. Just for the record, the full OT powers thing WOULD be fun, I think, just not all the time. If we could all do it all the time, THEN I think it would become boring – just like anything else that we can always do all the time. In other words, life would have no mystery. There’d be nothing to learn because we already know everything there is to know. Nothing Anything we wanted we could just create, instantly. Anything we didn’t want we could just make it disappear, instantly! ALL the time. Now and forever and always. Total power – all of us always. See? After a while, it would be very – well, there’s that word again – boring. No game at all. But that’s just me 🙂
Overrun, they actually tried that in the infamous government-funded military-affiliated research at SRI about 40 years ago – with the involvement of several scientologists and the infamous Ingo Swann. Typically, they could never get any consistent, reproducible results – and if they had, the US government would have been able to do things like find Saddam Hussein right way and keep the North Koreans from getting nuclear weapons, conspiracy theories that impressive results and special powers were kept hidden don’t pass the reality check.
The Russians – whose government, and top officials, sometimes supported pseudo-science, occasionally to the great detriment of the country – were apparently looking into remote viewing, and I think the US government felt the need to perform due diligence and be sure they weren’t missing out on something with military and national security implications. They apparently figured out that there was nothing to it….
Oh, and didn’t they show how it works, in the movie Ghostbusters? 🙂
Peacemaker,
I just read ‘Phenomenon’ , a chronology of ‘remote viewing’, dowsing, and ‘thought transference’ by the US government since WW2. The SRI work was but a small part of those operations. Some startling results. Never consistent. Apparently abandoned. The book shows the difficulty in scientific experiments into the psychic realm.
Well I want the placebo that enables me to go exterior with full perception! I could make trillions of dollars with that pill! (Oh yea that placebo is a tab of LSD?…..never mind! Been there, done that and it was all only in my own mind)!
If I had to describe Scn and the church down to one word, it would be – pretence. It runs through virtually everything in the subject, from its founder to its members. Nothing is as it seems. They pretend to be religious. They pretend to be humanitarians. Hubbard pretended to a great religious philosopher. Scnists pretend to be superior to wogs. The Grade Chart is one big exercise in pretence.
It may sound strange, but the church really doesn’t want a lot of attention. With attention comes scrutiny and critical examination. It creates a lot of problems for the church. More attention means more dissatisfied customers, which prompts more controversy and lawsuits. They need new people to replace those dying off…but not too many.
I think another (possible) limitation on Scientology paying, participating, or condoning an independent study is the fact (AFAIK) that Hubbard never wrote about doing such a study. Therefore, they cannot even consider doing something not already covered by ‘source’. Besides, the tech works. Hubbard said it works. KSW
Oh, I don’t know, I’d say you’re an exceedingly bright and twinkly chandelier, Mike 🙂
In addition Andrea, he has been known to rattle around in high places while overseeing the dwindling cesspool of $cientology.
Agreed, Andrea. Mike is to the cult that bright, revolving LED bulb – who knows what dark corner it will illuminate next? Must drive the Dwarf nuts. “…Lou…Lou?… LOU! Another scotch!… NOW!”
“You need to be a Scientologist to test Scientology?” What utter shite. Anyone who says something like that has no idea at all what science is.
Does a Scientologist have two arms with two hands on the end? Does the tester have a piece of paper (and a ruler to measure various heights)? Bam – there’s your reaction time test.
Can the Scientologist repeat a list of words? Does the tester have a list of words? Bam – memory test.
These two tests are possibly the most widely useful and attractive benefits of Scientology imaginable, and neither of them requires that *the tester* be a Scientologist. Or even a human. Or alive. Hell with some simple equipment, the Scientologist could conduct a fair test *on themself.*
The facts are what is ultimately killing Scientology. It. Isn’t. True.
jmsr
” Does a Scientologist have two arms with two hands on the end?”
Maybe the two arms but you never know what’s on the ends cause they’re usually in some ones pockets.
” Does the tester have a piece of paper (and a ruler to measure various heights)?”
Usually but it does not need to be longer than 4′ 13″.
” Can the Scientologist repeat a list of words?”
Only a couple of phrases that we know of ….do birds fly?…. and do fish swim?
” Does the tester have a list of words? ”
Yes …. how long has it been since you have talked to your parents?
Yo Dave,
“The facts are what is ultimately killing Scientology.” good fuckin buddy!
Newcomer.
Your’e funny. lol
Newcomer is a genius.
Since the Olympics is just finished, how many of the best athletes in the world are Scientologists?
Ok… this is a tough one. Oh, man, I’m going out on a limb and zero.
Ah but the IOC bans all practicing scientologists for their superior abilities.
I think.
I think the bottom line of the Church’s MO is that they’re just another commercial product in a virtually limitless market. And like most commercial products and services, the benefits, qualities, etc are completely subjective. If you’re convinced it’s good, then it’s good. A lot of marketing and PR is dedicated to simply convincing you that their stuff is really neat. In the marketing world, it’s been often said the “perception is reality.”
You’re onto something here, and the other self improvement products out there are way less trouble. As anyone will see when they inevitably Google it.
In a free market society new products or services must be good/effective to survive in the long run. Marketing and PR without this foundation have a short life, like Scientology. The only people who think Scientology is still a viable product or service are Scientologists.
This article is also quite timely for me as my morning muse was again turned to PTS tech and illness.
I learned more and more about PTSness and PTS tech through the years as I went up the bridge. I was never cured of any illness nor did I have a miraculous recovery from any injury. I experienced relief from “having an answer to my current issue” by naming an SP, but no actual physical results.
….
this subject is very important to me because I do have some physical things to deal with and though I fully and 100 percent know that it was all bunk and BS and Hubbard was a lying so-and-so throughout his life, I am still left with a brainwashed mind on illness.
I can tell myself all I want that it was bunk, I force myself to speak about physical issues with others (non-scio) but I have been unable to shake the feelings of shame for having “anything wrong with me”.
Scn taught me that the only reason I have any accident/illness/injury/bad condition is that I am PTS. In order to be PTS I must have overts. I will not recover fully unless I resolve the PTS condition and that means finding the SP and finding our what I did to go effect.
Scn taught me that when bad things happen to me it means I am degraded and that it was because of my actions.
I work to banish this every single day of my life.
I can KNOW it’s shit, but I feel the shame crawling within.
I damn the whole thing for this effect.
I feel for you. That’s a lot of baggage to add to chronic illness!
The labeling thing is part of chronic illness. Many people feel better just knowing what they have.
Even more want to know what will help, which could actually lead to self help movements.
secret, you know, we all of us have overts and we’re all more or less to some degree PTS just by being human. Its pretty much a human condition. LRH would get sick, you know? The body is vulnerable!
Thanks for all of this. 🙂
I’m moving along and doing better freeing myself from some of the drilled in nonsense.
I know Hubbard was sick and ill and died, and I know he was just a liar, I know we all do good things and bad things and we justify things, and I don’t really have a problem with all of that. I don’t use the terms anymore and I refuse to use any of the labels on myself. I’m not PTS, I’m not committing and O/W, etc.
I have some physical conditions and that’s life. I didn’t deserve it, I didn’t pull it in, I didn’t create it, It’s not because of an SP, etc.
But I do still have some the FEELINGS inside me. The automatic thoughts come and I can push them away. I can say FU to them… but I still have the ugly feelings inside, the shame and whatnot.
I’m handling it by TELLING people about it as often as I can. I normalize it by saying it.
Because see, when I was “active” onlines, I didn’t tell anyone. I just dealt with things with the EO, C/S, D of P, and so on. It wasn’t the subject of conversation.
Not even my nearest and dearest scio friends know what’s going on with my body.
I’m not giving them that info to use as an excuse for why I’m too busy to be on course.
……
Dumb old wogs? They’re sweetie pies who express compassion and understanding and share thoughts and stories about their own troubles. 🙂
They don’t judge me with “pts, overts, degraded being” etc. I’ve told a couple complete strangers about my circumstance including the cult trap that makes me feel shame and so on, they’re APPALLED for me.
I’m trying to normalize and feel the world.
I love it, even when it’s hard.
(I’d be way more specific here if I could, but you know, limbo-ing through life)
Secretfornow, hugs to you. Im so glad to hear you are opening up to people. I’m never in, but from family of origin, and an abusive partner, I understand shame and low self esteem. Sharing your feelings about it takes courage.
Hugs again.
SFN: Hubbard said we are “responsible” for our condition. What that was (and it worked) a method of “interiorizing” each of us, causing us to BLAME ourselves. In truth, we ARE responsible, meaning that we are the best person to respond to our situation to do something about it. FORGET THE BLAME CRAP. You DID NOT DO IT TO YOURSELF. YOU DID NOT “PULL IT IN!!!
Responsibility is easy. Self blame is a bitch. But that’s how Hubbard got us to “interiorize” ourselves, our own personal trap.
Taking responsibility brings one totally into present time. It’s a decision that “I can handle this and correct it.” It is the opposite of “It’s all my FAULT AND I’M GUILTY”.
Hubbard said we are “responsible” for our condition. What that was (and it worked) a method of “interiorizing” each of us, causing us to BLAME ourselves.
All the while blaming past lives/deaths and parasitic entities for the human condition.
All the while blaming O/Ws and “hidden crimes” as the sole reason why anyone would dare to criticise him or his ideas.
All the while blaming M/Us as the sole reason why anyone would dare to stop studying his work.
All the while blaming SPs for causing sickness, for accidents, foul ups, crashed stats, poor sales and any number of organisational failures.
All the while blaming the media, the psychs, bankers, the IRS, politicians, et al, for bad press, public outrage and being accused as a crackpot, tax-dodging scam artist.
All the while blaming the psychs (them again!) for being the root of all pain and evil in the universe.
If “scientology works” then LRH really was a crap scientologist. Truly awful. The worst advert for “the tech”, bar none.
Of course if it does “work,” then he himself is the EP: a fat, miserable, foul-smelling breath monster who died screaming at the sky.
Dog Story Alert:
secret, here’s something I learned about self-esteem from a dog I had. He was a little fluffy white Shih Tsu. Adorable! But macho as all hell. An un-neutered male. When I would take him for a walk in the big city where I lived, he OWNED the streets and every other female dog walking in them. No other male dogs BELONGED in our neighborhood. When he was out for his walk, this was HIS neighborhood. If he saw any other male dogs he would act out: barking, straining at the leash. Didn’t matter that many of these other male dogs were 3 times his size and could easily have made a shrimp cocktail appetizer out of him. Didn’t matter. In HIS mind, he was GODZILLA. Dogzilla! “Get out of the way, you other males! You don’t belong here! If I weren’t on this leash, what I would DO to you” He was not only their equal, he was their superior. He owned the area, and every female canine in HIS area. . Every one of them. And he liked the BIG females best, by the way.. But that’s another story…
Another self esteem lesson/ story about my little dog, who lived to the age of 15: He would sleep on my bed, but he also liked to sleep on the couch. He could jump fairly high. I never taught him that, he was just able to jump. My bed was high. My couch was not quite as high. So all night for years he’s sleep for a while on my bed, then jump off, and go sleep on the couch, come back, etc. No problem. Until he got arthritis. Then he couldn’t jump on my bed anymore. The couch, yes. The bed, no. But, did he change his sleeping habits and maybe, just stay on the couch? Or, let me pick him up and settle him on my bed for the night, and just stay there, instead of the on and off couch/bed/couch/bed routine? Um, no. His routine remained the same. H still wanted to sleep on my bed AND the couch. And when he was coming back from the couch, and couldn’t get back on the bed on his own, he’d BARK and wake me up: He’d make several attempts on his own to get up on the bed, and if I didn’t wake up and lift him up he’d bark and wake me up! And he wasn’t even polite about it. “Hurry up! What are you waiting for? Don’t you see that I need to sleep on the bed for a while? Let’s go!”
See, the fact that he had arthritis in his back legs and could jump on the bed by himself anymore was not HIS problem. It was MY problem. He’d wake me up at least 3 times a night. Didn’t bother him. He was’t going to change his sleeping habits!
I would look at this little dog in amazement, sometimes. Such self confidence. Self assurance. His disabilities in old age made no difference to his self esteem. He owned everything. He owned ME.
I’d think, “If this little dog can be so naturally self assured, why not me?”
Terrific story. I could see him! Interestingly, we recently bought a home next door to a Shih Tsu who owns both the humans she permits to live there. Also in the neighborjppd os a man who owns three VERY large dogs he exercises by riding his bike with all three of his monsters on leashes. The little Shih Tsu strains at her leash. barking madly… and the big dogs immediately move to the other side of the road to avoid her!
“…a Shih Tsu who owns both the humans she permits to live there.” LOL, Peter! Yes, I’ve found that large dogs, unless trained to be otherwise, are mellow, and its the terriers and Shih Tsus and other smaller breeds who kick ass! God, I miss my little pal. I could go out and get 12 dogs right now.
I hope you have another great dog. Thanks for the story. <3
I hear ya. It’s pretty intense. BUT….this “illness = PTS and only PTS” is actually not the truth. Yes, stupidly there IS an HCOB that says that, but there is also an HCOB that used to be on the Grad 5 course (not sure if it still is) that lists about 6-7 reasons for illness and the other phenomena. PTS is only one of them. IMO the reason “everybody” quotes this ONE issue is because you have to train up to Grad 5 in order to study the one that says there’s more reasons. It has never been a more broadly known issue. (Here’s another thread– there are plenty of contradictory bits of tech in various issues. Some can be adjudicated by the date of the issue, but not all. Some just go around in circles.) I’m sorry that this has dug you in so deep. Hopefully this info can help you in some way.
Hi, …I don’t have my references anymore and I wouldn’t even want to scour about and exchange stuff – I spent wayyyy too much time in that shit-heap already. 🙂
But the “Any and all illness stems directly and only from a PTS condition” or words to that effect – they are a scn law. Caps and whatnot. I did the PTS/SP course numerous times, including the newest one – I’ve done almost everything in scn.
There’s stuff about out int and out lists and so on, but I think this area is pretty clear in more than one reference.
There’s more on it on the OT levels, you “handle” PTSness there too… OT V has a bunch.
You.Are.So.RIGHT. when you speak of the contradictions. They are SO rife. So littered.
If someone wrote them up in book form, I’d buy it… just in case I ever wanted to debate it with a scio or something – no way will I personally spend any effort at it at this point – I’m still dealing and healing. I don’t need to be convinced of anything, I’m fully done with it.
The first one that I do have in back pocket and I’d like to whip out at the next event…. (dreamer) is the Creed vs the suppressive act of speaking out against Scn,
Thanks for commiserating with me, buddy!
Yep, let’s leave it at that! No more References Referee! LOL And that was a great comment on a book about the contradictions. I wish you success with the dealing and healing.
Hi again, Secret. I empathize. I have health issues, too, and I have struggled with pseudo-scientific and pseudo-spiritual beliefs about illness (although not Scientology’s beliefs, specifically).
I think it is a very widespread fallacy that “You create your own reality” (as Jane Roberts famously put it). You may affect your reality, but a great deal of it is determined by factors outside your control. That goes for things like the economy and biology. Although it won’t in itself cure you, I think it helps one’s attitude to deal with reality as it is. Our bodies have limitations. The real world has limitations. You can’t just hypnotize yourself to be all-powerful, as Hubbard tried to do. You can’t make stuff up, consider it verified by your own confirmation bias, and have that qualify as science. To me, it’s just a new form of Calvinism (that says if you’re wealthy, God gave it to you, and if you’re poor, God is punishing you) to say people create their realities completely. It’s NOT TRUE.
It relieves a lot of that self-judgment (that is in itself unhealthy) to accept that illness, misfortune, and poverty are not reserved for people who somehow “deserve” or “created” it. Many factors create the current financial economy, for example, certainly not just the deservingness of the wealthy. Many factors create disease. Etc. If you really look at this belief, it is pervasive. So it’s worth looking at it and rooting it out. It’s not just from Scientology, though Scientologists seem to have it in spades (they always think they “pulled it in”).
That said, the mind clearly does affect the body in all sorts of ways. I’ve witnessed shocking effects of my own subconscious on my physical body (like huge blisters appearing in minutes, for example). I do think that if one has traumas or abuse stored in one’s subconscious, it can affect one’s health. But working to make that material conscious and heal it does not happen through auditing on an e-meter in the presence of someone who has been trained out of all compassion. In fact, healing requires the opposite — a compassionate witness to share the emotions and pain with. I had chronic, intense, debilitating back pain for 40 years. It finally subsided after a couple years in therapy with a really good psychologist (rare). So I think there are things one can choose to do and believe that can affect one’s health, to some extent, in some situations, in the long run. (Is that qualified enough to be realistic? hehe) It’s just never this thing of earning or being punished. Some things can’t be affected that way, and with the things that can be affected, it’s a complex process, not some cut and dried “technology.”
For what it’s worth. My five cents of the day.
Secret- What you say, about still struggling with the indoctrination to feel you’ve “pulled it in” etc, even when you know it’s crap, resonates with me. I had an eating disorder for many years and although you know it’s unhealthy, dangerous etc…those feelings and thoughts that drove you to it in the first place are still there, in the background, gnawing at you…you can push them down, bury them, but they still whisper to you…it’s a process and a long way back…I’m a never in, but I can empathize with your indoctrination still whispering to you.
Stay strong and there’s a ton of people out here who would be happy to reach out and help you in any way they can!
It’s not even that. Even if those things were true, such as increased IQ, better moral standards for marriage, or even faster reaction time; from my experience, they will only use you and leave you worse off in the end.
Why else would a Scientology organization need you to sign a contract before they will help you if they didn’t intend for you to leave and have to handle you? As LRH says in BF:E: leverage, leverage, leverage.
I love this article, Mike. For me goes in with your key and important articles, maybe just even right at the top of that list.
My main beef with scn is that it does not work. I did the bridge and I have no magic powers. Any benefit I may have attributed over my time could easily have been gotten with more education, a cup of coffee, a friendly ear, a good book, some exercise, a decent mentor, and so on. No magic, no proof of beliefs.
I like how you point out the simplicity of how it could be tested without violating the various bits that Hubbard set up to keep people from testing it. (the list and info on PTS types mainly)
…
If SCN worked it would have taken over already. “nuff said. 🙂
………
There has been much chatter about an actual scientific study to prove the efficacy of the purif. This one would be quite simple and over the years I’ve heard a lot about it being planned, done, in progress, and so on.
But radio silence on actually getting it done and the results published. HA! I wonder why?
Could it be that reporting that Sci doesn’t work violates KSW?
According to the expert, Tom Cruise, his head could possibly explode.
Gotta get on ya here OSD – His head could possibly IMPLODE (I’d absolutely haaaate to see what would come out, yuck).
Secret…
I posted this back in August 2017:
August 12, 2017 at 6:59 pm
Terra,
Late in the 1970’s I tried to get the results from a group (FASC I believe it was) that was doing blood work on a group doing the purif. I only got to see the results from a friend and then only ‘draft’ charts.
I pointed out that the results of 6 weeks of puif did show a lowering of several metabolites. But zero results regarding drugs of interest. Nothing about a placebo group just saunaing. Nothing about a control group doing the vitamins but no sauna. In essence no scientific work at all.
Standard Scientology at work. Standard fail.
Great post, Mike!
I’d like to comment on the idea that Scientology raises a person’s IQ.
This is actually “proven” by the church over and over again.
Before anyone commences on an auditing program, they are given a “battery of tests”. This consists of the OCA (personality) test, an IQ test, and an “aptitude” test.
Ok, fair enough. You do these tests and turn them in. This step is part of what I call the pageantry of Scientology. They are administering scientific tests to you to provide a “before” picture. That’s pretty damned science-y!
So then you proceed with your auditing program over a few weeks or so, and when you finish, they hand you the same well-worn sheet, that is the exact same IQ test with the same questions!
There is this thing called “memory” and I would always employ it when I retook the IQ test, so rather than having to work out all the hard answers again, I remembered what I had answered from a few weeks earlier, and what do you know!? My IQ test score would be improved!
I won’t even address the OCA test in this comment (except to say auditing usually does make you feel better, at least for a while) or the aptitude test (wtf was that all about, somebody please tell me).
So there you go! Scientology actually scientifically “proves” to each person on an individual basis that it works, using the person’s own improved test scores!
Yet the cognitive dissonance always remained for me regarding the IQ test and knowing that I had simply remembered the questions rather than having used a newly-improved mind to more rapidly solve the questions.
When I inquired about this (maybe 3 or 4 times early on), along the lines of “shouldn’t we have a different test instead of the same test”, the staff would look at me like I had asked some sort of a dim-witted question. One specious answer I got one time was, “If we don’t give you the same test, then how do we know you are or are not getting an improvement?” They weren’t mean in response, just sort of smiling and tolerant.
It kind of has the effect of friendly gaslighting.
You want to get along with these people who are sincerely trying to help you. You’ve invested quite a bit of treasure so you want it to be the case that it was just proven that they raised your IQ. For me, I felt like it must be me, getting “too significant” or splitting hairs, so after awhile, I just accepted that this was how it was, and enjoyed the happy feelings of completing something and all the happy faces in support of how much better everything was.
“There was also a Super Bowl ad for Scientology, which encouraged people to Google ‘Scientology.’ Uh, Scientology, I have a question. Have you Googled ‘Scientology?’ Because I wouldn’t encourage that. That’s like O. J. Simpson saying ‘No, really. I’m a famous football player. Google “O. J. Simpson.”’” — STEPHEN COLBERT
Of course, the downside of participating in an independent study would be the proof that Hubbard’s claims were false. Actually, Miscavige already thought of this and did this. Both Hubbard’s Purif and Study Tech were the subjects of independent studies to prove they worked.
Never heard of these studies? Yeah, that tells you what was actually proven.
I understand that you’re stating something that really will never happen, but let me point out the fundamental problem with even this kind of study.
I was listening to a podcast yesterday where one of the podcasters had just gotten glasses for the first time in his life at age 40. He discussed with his fellow podcaster the confirmation bias present where you believe that you have “made your vision better” by refusing to believe it is bad.
He said for years, he did not think he needed glasses, that everyone saw things the way he did. That that’s the way everyone’s vision worked. Then he went to a doctor and was told he needed glasses. He argued with the eye doctor, but eventually got glasses. Now he understands what it’s like to see with corrected vision and is amazed at how much different things look.
When I was in scientology I believed the world looked and felt a certain way. If you had asked me if I was healthy, I would have ignored the blinding headache, the rotting teeth, the deteriorating vision and the 30 lbs I needed to gain and given you a huge smile and said “healthier than I’ve been in my entire life”.
I fully and truly believed that my reaction time at stop lights was seconds faster off the line than any other human being on the planet. I totally believed that my IQ was getting higher with each and every course I was taking.
I would not have been lying when I said I was healthy even though it probably took 3 years to reach a healthy weight after I escaped and dozens of surgeries to correct the physical damage done to my body.
You can measure reaction time, you can measure IQ (scientology rigs their IQ tests so that is a lie there) but the human mind can’t stop a person from lying to themselves about their physical condition or anorexia would not exist.
It has a lot of courage to look back in this manner and admit to what you were. Glad you are in a better place.
Not all posters here, but, the majority of posters have gone through hell & highwater. We all have a common interest in this.
Valerie, I know you’ve gone through a lot of bullshit in the cult, but, I also know you’re one tough cookie. I admire you.
Reminds me of the story where Hubbard brought on stage one of the first CLEAR’s. Per Dianetics a Clear is supposed to have a perfect mind like a computer with all the held down 7’s removed, bla, bla, bla. Someone in the audience asked the “Clear” to recall the color of Hubbards tie, without turning around to look. The “Clear” could not recall the color of the tie. I think that was the last time Hubbard allowed one of his “products” to be publicly challenged. Could you image what would happen if an OT 8 could be challenged. Show me cause over mater, energy, space and time. Show me how you handled amnesia on the whole track. What did you have for lunch last Thursday? Answer: Daaahhhh
“What did you have for lunch last Thursday? Answer: Daaahhh”
LOL, Mat. When I was a kid I had a photographic memory. I could memorize whole paragraphs word for word. (Nothing Whole Track entered into this ability btw ) My memory is still pretty good but nowhere near what it used to be. I used to be able to remember what I read, or what people said to me, word for word. This proved at times annoying to parents and authority figures in those instances where they might be saying, “Well, I told you.___, _____. ____. ____. ” and I’d say, “Well, what you said was, “_____, _______, ” , parroting back what they’d said word for word. Quite annoying I’m sure, but I wasn’t trying to annoy them, I was just communicating! Anyway, this was a gift I HAD , that’s all. Was it “OT?” Who knows? That part of my mind just worked very well. that’s all.
On the OTHER hand, ONE thing I could NEVER do was DRAW! Being asked to draw ANYTHING (without a pattern) would throw me into a TOTAL panic.and I do mean PANIC. From day one I was simply UNABLE to look at something and then duplicate it, or come anywhere NEAR duplicating it. And this inability was even more anxiety producing to me because I was the ONLY ONE IN ALL MY CLASSES WHO COULDN’T DRAW,- AT ALL. Nada, zip. And I STILL can’t draw anything! But I knew a few kids who starting in elementary school could draw and paint so beautifully, effortlessly – where does that gift, that ability, come from? These particular kids had little interest in other classwork but wow could they draw! And paint!
No one TAUGHT them. When we got “art lessons” in grade school they could ALREADY draw, amazingly.
And everyone else got by, more or less. . And I froze inside. Utter panic, praying for the class to be over! So that we could get back to the “regualr” schoolwork in which I did well.
All of this long winded point being, aren’t we all, each in our own ways, already BORN “OT”? Don’t each of us ALREADY have abilities and gifts, and these abilities, and disabilities, vary. The examples of this are endless.
I suppose the essence of what I’m trying to get across is that we are each of us already “OT” in an infinite variety of ways.
Good points, Aqua.
I remember beating myself up over something a few years back. Something about how I respond to certain things over and over. It didn’t affect anyone but me.
At one point I had this thought, “You know, that’s just how I’m wired.”
Haven’t had any self-defeating thoughts about it since.
Mike.. as always, you make excellent points and make me think… this time think about the Courses I took and the successes that (at the time) it made to myself and my family..
However.. isn’t it somewhat like the “Placebo Effect”?.. with all of the marketing, encouragement on the WINS and the Staff patting us on the back, of course we thought we were seeing improvements.. it is human nature to WANT to believe that it works. Faith is just just that.. faith.
Unfortunately, there is no way to fully measure faith.
I recommend SHAM: How the self-help movement made America Helpless, by Steve Salerno. It covers the placebo effect and wish fulfillment in the self help movement thoroughly. Scientology fits in well with the timeline. The blog older archives have some interesting info on these topics as well. http://www.shamblog.com.
Mike – the Cabbage Patch dolls were all the rage in 1983, that was 35 years ago. You might recall it came just eight years after the Pet Rock craze. Hopefully, Scientology will be like the Pet Rock and Cabbage Patch fads – long gone by the time of our grandchildren.
I just thought it was interesting. I read Dianetics and some other basic books at the library in 1991/1992-ish. When I saw the Nightline show with Miscavige I didn’t like him at all. I saw the OTIII stuff and I understood Ted was trying to smear Scn. However, I also saw a bunch of trainees, the LA complex with hordes of Scientologists walking around, big buildings, etc. I didn’t know it was an actual “thing” before that.
So, the next day I looked up the address for the Phx org and drove down. So, in my case, the “bad” didn’t matter. I wasn’t looking to Nightline to tell me what it was because I had read the book.
I don’t know how I would have reacted to the data that is out today as this was before the internet, but I assume the same things happens. People find it interesting and then check it out further.
When you look at the orgs it seems this is rare though.
Also, from working in Div 6 I know the best way is personal contact and direct dissemination. Give someone an assist, have them read a book, etc. Advertising never produced a worthwhile result or return on investment that I observed when I was on staff. It’s like you’re paying a million dollars to “make” one new Scientologist. You might get some “reaches”, but converting these into actual stable public or staff is rare.
Faith? I’d call it blind faith. There’s a difference.
Scientology blind belief is mandated by threat of punishment. Constructive doubt and independent investigation is considered a crime worthy of punishment and group humiliation.
L Ron Hubbard gives the cheese: a smattering of real help; then when rational faith is had, Ron labels investigation of his claims as suppressive.
With threat of punishment as a deep fear, Scientologists are now mind slaves ready and able for Hate Week.
He knew what he was doing. He played the degraded role of evil bastard.
I couldn’t have said it better, Brian! You laid out the evil for all to see. Nicely done.
It should became even more widely known that the head of Scientology, Mr David Miscavige doesn’t even use Scientology! He hasn’t been audited for over a decade, doesn’t audit people himself, nor attends academies or courses… in fact he isn’t even a Scientologist per their own doctrines and definitions. A scientologist uses Scientology or so it is professed by Hubbard. That may explain why such a study would never, ever be permitted. Per Hubbard’s own claims, codes and policy, the sad truth emerges that there in no such thing as a Scientologist. Well, certainly not in the Church of Scientology. It is crime to be self determined, only being Hubbard/Miscavige determined is permitted.
Scientology is claimed to be an “applied religious philosophy.” Good overall question Mike – please Cof$, anyone, show us how that is done and the results of applying it vs not applying it. It works 100% of the time right… well, doesn’t it?
I Yawn, DM uses TONS of scientology every day. THAT is the problem. It is just scientology that you weren’t trained in.
I could use nothing but LRH policy and create what DM has created.
Yes, can’t disagree there, that’s simple logic, Scio policy alone will cease any sane mind and separate it from reason and common sense. Hubbard never applied what he wrote though, things like conditions etc. Selective wantingness I suppose is applied Scientology.
Things like OSA policy and directives, now that’s something I didn’t calculate into my reaction this morning. That’s Scientology at its gruesome worst.
What a fucked up place Scioland is…
Scientology is like an insane asylum with no nurses to help them.
That’s because nurses are bad. They were sent in from the psychiatrists to subvert, use out-tech mental treatment, and invalidate any scientology mumbo-jumbo. Can’t pass a sec-check either.
OSD,
Let’s give david diminutive good old Nurse Ratched. She will know what to do with his short arse.
Yes INDEED I Yawn. Let’s just say that Ol’ Hubtard was VERY selective in what of his own “tek” he did and didn’t use.
In the case of the Demented Miscreant DM stands for Dave’s Money. It’s $camologies moolah in name only.
“…Mr. Miscavige doesn’t even use Scientology.”
That’s because even he knows it’s all BULSHIT, too. And because if he picks up the cans it would be an instant Rock Slam.
And, he declared he was a ‘Natural Clear.’ No need for auditing for the dwarf.
I’ve thought about DM not getting audited. My take:
He has sooooo much to hide. His secret crimes and hidden lifestyle would be revealed.
Besides his hiding his crimes against others, I believe he probably has a hidden sex life.
I wouldn’t be surprised that one day some hooker secretly taped him.
He’s human like the rest of us. Well, maybe not like us.
My intuition says he has a hidden life not known to even those at the base.
He’s afraid of the meter. He’s afraid of the truth.
Brian – “Besides his hiding his crimes against others, I believe he probably has a hidden sex life.” Absolutely. I suspect he and Lou have whips, chains and all kind of torture devices in their closets. This kind of sex could never me known. And of course his evil crimes, there must be some doozies that no one knows about.
Well,I believe I read that Lou has a Black Belt in karate. Of itself, no big deal, but with that butch haircut and huge adams apple she is kind of –
for lack of a better term , dominant looking. I could definitely envision her as, well…let me put it this way: Its possible the REAL reason DM shelved Shelly was she wasn’t responsive enough to his ” adventurous” side. Maybe He and Lou are more compatible “that way”.
Sort of like, Shut the fuck up! We’ll tell you what to say and how to think?
What, make $cientology actually sciency? Never happen is right.
$cientology’s business plan is to sell you your very own made up ‘ruin’. It wasn’t enough to tap Lron’s imagination, he had to tap your imagination and sell it back to you. ‘Past Lives’, ‘engrams’, ‘body thetans’, everything about $cientology is geared to getting your money and/or servitude and then spitting you out the door when the well runs dry. Then on to the next mark.
It takes skill to set the hook and make the mark keep paying. That skill can’t be exercised by a video screen and recorded platitudes. Without the human touch, you can’t sell bullshit.
There is a huge body of research into advertising and selling woo to the public. Politicians do it all the time. There is not a lot of difference between selling laundry detergent and a political platform. $cientology TV ads violate pretty much all of the precepts of advertising. They are not designed to bring in new meat. They are designed to make the current minions more ‘miniony’. Not even a snappy jingle can save $cientology.
There is nothing that any $cientologist can do to reverse the current perception of $cientology. It will always remain a couch jumping, psych bashing, money grabbing, mind controlling cult. No amount of celebrity endorsements or ‘4 out of 5 dentists agree’ ads will ever change that. Thank you internet and every ex who has told their story. You are killing the monster.
WT??? My husband’s bff took himself, his girlfriend & his 90 year old mother out to eat. The bill came to $70.17 after he left a tip on the table. He handed the young cashier a $50, a $20 & a JFK half dollar coin. The young cashier stared at the coin & with money in hand, went to speak to another employee. The girl, the other employee then went to speak to someone who appeared to be someone who was a bit older who appeared to be some type of possibly an Assistant Manager.
The original cashier returned to the register, money in hand….she gave back the half dollar Kennedy coin & said….don’t worry about the 17 cents……….huh???
Seems like the THREE of then had NEVER seen a JFK Half Dollar (50 cent) piece before in their ENTIRE lives!
Where the Hell is our High School Education please!
It will never happen without a change in coinage. Machines take quarters even if the total is $2.50. Only grandparents and perhaps the tooth fairy are dealing in dollar and half dollar coins.
“Elementary school, my dear Balletlady.” Sad, isn’t it? Our future. Glad I’m not the only one.
Sadly, things have drastically changed…..there are those who know little to nothing about our nation’s Wars & history…..it’s all “bygone days” seemingly of little important enough to be taught in school. What ARE civil rights, why & where did it start. Suffice it to say that slavery came in all colors as many came to the USA as indentured slaves….unable to ever pay back what they “borrowed” for the fare to the USA. Kids know nothing about that either. Kids have little to no knowledge of “gold coins” really either…hand them a $1, $5, $10, $20 bill & that is what they know. The penny is of no value to a child anymore since the “penny candy” some of us grew up knowing is gone as well. Let’s get rid of the penny & just simply go up or down on the prices we pay for the goods & services we purchase, right?
As noted, I remember as a kid waking up to find a hoard of pennies under my pillow, or a few 25 cent coins from the tooth fairy. I have saved a few Kennedy half dollar pieces & shown them to my own kids & other people’s kids as well to this day, they are amazed because as I’ve noted that 50 cent half dollar is long gone. A coin to honor a deceased US President faded into oblivion as if his life meant nothing to anyone.
My Susan B Anthony coins are in perfect condition, I treasure them & have them stored away…..kids STILL don’t believe there WAS a $1 coin, that there are ONLY paper $1 bills… & yes, that is true since the Susan B Anthony coin has faded into oblivion as well. I highly doubt kids in school today even KNOW who Susan B Anthony was…..part of our nation’s history as well, but not taught, not remembered. JFK they would be more familiar with, BUT…were they ever informed that there IS a coin minted in his honor after his death?
Students don’t know what WW I or WW II was about….WHO did we fight against in those wars? Korea….what was that about….Viet Nam….what was that about…they just aren’t taught it anymore. Give a kid Algebra, Calculus, Geometry, Chemistry….most of which they will NEVER use in their professional life, that they HAVE to know……simple English Grammar, some can’t find their way through that & that IS necessary.
My mom died nearly three years ago…one of the things she said to me before her death was that “she was glad to be leaving this world, it isn’t as nice a place as it use to be….seems like most people today are out for themselves & care little to nothing for others”…. I am beginning to see her point.
There are so many nice people here who’ve been deeply hurt, these same people fully understand what it means to have others CARE about them or for them…..glad I have “met” such people on this blog & on Tony’s blog…..but it is sad indeed that THIS is one of the ways to actually meet loving, caring, kind, generous of heart & soul people. I’ve been Blessed by many of you, & for that I thank you!
Balletlady,
I keep a St. Gaudens double eagle. Art in coinage. Google it my friends.
Beg to differ, Mike.
Steps to getting people in? Clean up the shit PR scene by choosing a new CEO, publicly fess up to Church crimes, cancel all SP declares, lower prices dramatically, get rid of OSA, stop running people’s lives on the 2D, stop harassing people for donos, completely reform ethics/justice system, let people come to events and enter an org without going through a KGB interrogation, give SO members liveable hours and a day off each week, REALLY get in customer service and caring for people, STOP LYING ON EVERY FUCKING THING UNDER THE SUN …
Oh, there’s no doubt more … But start on the above and more people will feel safe in being interested in the subject …
*someone say the above can’t be done because of LRH policy? Well, tough noogies! AHH Expansion Theory of Policy DOES say you can disregard policy IF …
That’s AKH of course. Though I do have to add that if ALL the above was done AND a scientific survey showed that a “true” Grade 1 could do what the ep says … I still ain’t interested one iota in going back in … I’ve done my time and have happily moved on ..
Joe, You’re totally spot on! If the EPs and abilities gained that the grade chart promise were truly achieved prosperity and expansion would blossom. What I can attest to is that the abilities are not gained and my ability to discover/realize this was the EP that opened the door allowing me to leave forever and cut the money bleed. Maybe I should write a success story and send it in. Ha, ha, ha.
Good for you, Glen!!! And in doing so, you got your old life back! And…maybe you should write that Success Story, on how leaving the cult gave you back your TRUE freedom! We’re all very happy for you!
Thank you very much OSD. Nice to be free and in comm with you all. I think if I wrote that success story it would evolve into a book, like Leah Remini’s or Nancy Many’s or Ron Miscavidge or………
Joe, your program has already been proven wrong. Hence, no Indie Orgs are booming in the USA
I don’t know if there are actually any indie orgs outside of the one in Haifa, but the subject itself is in such current disrepute, my guess is the earliest there could be any significant interest in the subject would be at at least 100 years after the collapse of the CoS … maybe longer.
There are two or three orgs advertised in the USA. Georgia & Idaho being two. They have been open for YEARS longer than the fairly recent CoS damaging mass media onslaught. They never have been successful.
Just like early non-SO orgs were never viable,anywhere on the planet
Unfortunately Scientology was built on a lie; name it a Church/Religion so there will be income but no taxes. Just a selfish personal purpose of the Founder. And evidence shows it is declining.
Lest compare it with, lets say, Bezos’ purpose to give service to customers. That purpose is still the bedrock of Amazon and, oh man, it has expanded beyond imagination.
Also, Scn was contradictory from the start: it’s a religion, but belief, nor faith are a requirement because in reality is a science….
No studies will ever be asked by the Church – the purpose is not to help others or make their lives a bit better, so why to invest money on that, and besides, no one but scientology knows how to do marketing….or anything else; only LRH and Scn have the full knowledge of of any aspect of life, no one else has ever found it, nor has it and …blah…blah…blah…
So if athletes tried to use Scientology to improve performance, wouldn’t that just be (ahem) “doping”? 🙂
Mind tampering… the old chewing gum on the baseball trick. If I was an athlete I think I would encourage my competitors to do Scientology. Then I could whisper to them, “I’m a declared SP buddy, be mind-full of not going PTS to me. You have yourself a good race, I’ll be right there with you all the way.”
Yea. Weeellll, I recently had a thought that I don’t think is a new one :): I don’t think miscavige has any interest in selling scientology with “tech” or its promises; I think he gives it lip service for the remaining scientologists. LRH said “sell it with services” and until the 90’s I was never asked to give money to the church for any other reason. With GAT I, the push for do-overs came in, but from the mid 90’s to the present, there has been a gradual shift from selling the Bridge to selling the other shit david miscavige is dishing out.
I was at a big even in the auditorium at Flag (I believe it was for “Super Power Bldg”) either in the late 90’s or early 2000’s when 5 whales (The Zwans, The Feschbachs, The Pollocks, and I can’t remember the other two) got together at that event in a little huddle at their own table and surprised the shit out of Charmaine, et al., and got up and said they would pledge 5 million dollars each. The event raised mucho dinero that night and I think that that night started a new trend where miscavige then had regges pummeling people for “more than they could give” because they knew everyone was lying – that if these five couples could “pledge” 5 mil each imagine what other whales could give, or the dolphins, the big tunas, the smaller fish or even the minnows. I experienced the shift personally; I saw and heard about it happening to others.
Besides Super Power Bldg, then came Basics (which did get people in for “services” but then blew most of them off because of the weight of this push), Ideal Orgs, IAS and then, of course, the usual buttons that could be pushed using the purpose of the front groups such as CCHR and of course, everyone wants everyone to have a moral code (TWTH), and drugs out of the hands of children, etc.
No, I do not believe miscavige thinks the tech works. We’ve already seen the demise of The Briefing Course and the Class 8 Course. What’s next? OT III?
I think miscavige moved from “sell it with services” to “sell it with an illusion of expansion.”
And you can bet the farm that if the Notorious DM selected the most bestest, most on-sourcest, most GAT I,II -est auditor ever to participate and the results are what {we} expect, we would hear/read/see the Shermanator’s grand explanation of how the squirrel deliberately sabotaged the experiment, — oh,hell, the Sherman-speak almost writes itself.
And on the other hand, Scientology could conduct a simple study of people who have been involved in the ‘religion’ and prove what wonderful results they achieve in improving the various qualities of life such as family values, friendships and community participation.
Yo Dave,
You could be the first example good buddy. You’re lookin’ more like a train wreck every day BIG BOY!
Hello Mike. I have been lurking here and other sites for a long time, since i discovered about Scientology. When i learned that Tom Cruise was a Scientologist and i tought that this was so cool that i had to found out more. I´m glad that i found what this cult actually was from you and others and avoided all the hassle that you and many others suffered. Thank you for that.
Regarding this topic you just posted, even if it was proven that i worked (let´s just suppose that it did), i would never subject myself to the pure hell that it is inside just to learn these things. I would prefer to be ignorant.
Fair enough 🙂
Bruno, you dodged a fate worse than death.
Yeah, i agree. I´m currently watching Leah and Mike documentary TV show and the stories are just heart breaking.
Agreed. I would prefer to keep my retirement savings and freedom to enjoy my life. I can live without improved reaction times and more IQ points.
As with pretty much everyone else, I too heard (and read, directly by Hubbard himself), all the claims of “science”, “workable technology”, etc. Yet, there in the “technical” bulletins is a list of potential trouble sources that includes “being there just to see if Scientology works”. But but but. … wait a minute. If it’s science and technology, shouldn’t it work every time regardless of what I think? Doesn’t that cover basically everyone when they first come through the door? Isn’t that a de facto admission that some degree of faith is required?
I can come into a college physics class convinced that the sun and earth are figments of gods’ imaginations and leave with my opinions unchanged, but the bridge will still stand, the solar cell will still produce electricity, and mixing acid and a base will still produce a salt and water. I posed the question to an ethics officer once, and basically got eloquent-sounding babble back, sufficient to realize that a. my question will not be answered no matter how many times I re-ask, and b. I’ll probably end up spending a LOT of time and money if I continue this line of questioning.
I’m curious if this answer would have been satisfactory at the time. Because you need to want or have some interest in improving your own case. Being in session means you’re interested in your case not whether or not Scientology works.* That was the answer I think that was my dad’s answer to a similar question. I wish I would have asked around other though would have been interesting to see what they had to say or not say about it.
* This brings up a huge out-point inherent in Scientology forcing people up and up the bridge whether they’re genuinely interested in doing it or not.
Yes, something like that was in the answer, and kept me going for some years I suppose. I explained away the part about new people naturally wanting to see if it works as something that will “go away” as certainty of Scn being the answer to everything builds up. But at the same time, I still filed it away in the back of my mind that the guy did not give me a satisfactory answer, and that my explanation to myself was not written anywhere, and technically if it isn’t written …
Your “huge out-point” is really huge and is a tip of a whole other iceberg just off the bow end of the proverbial Freewinds boat – all the non-stop calling of people, attempting to “salvage” them. The big out-point there is that the supposed experts in communication are not actually communicating with a person. The viewpoint is that any and all back-off from the bridge is nothing but bank, which is never to be acknowledged. So all those calls of “I really want to talk to you …” Yeah, right. And then they wonder why no one picks up the phone, including people still “on lines”?
The answer is very simple (what would cause scamology to boom, right now?).
Simply Deliver a Grade 1 that really did deliver the objective E.P. Hubtard stated for the level.
This alone would create so many new customers that you would fill every empty org almost overnight.
But, of course, that’s never, ever going to happen. Ever…
… Ever